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JV State 2007

Tournament announcements, results, and discussion about specific tournaments.
East Buc & UMR
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JV State 2007

Post by East Buc & UMR »

but eliminating players at the beginning of the year based on testing, especially when that method hasn't translated into success, might not be the smartest thing to do.
OH but it has.

A couple things that have led to where EB is now.

1. Up until my Sr. year the worst EB finished at a district was 3rd. My Jr. year our coach retired and his replacement really didn't do much. We still had a core of players (namely myself and Seth) that carried us to the afternoon my Sr year. After we left practice stopped and tournament trips died and thus our streak of playing in the afternoon. Last season was the first tournament since 2001 EB went to. She quit teaching at the end of the 2004-2005 school year.

2. In 2003 the school board for what ever reason decided to stop teaching algebra in 8th grade. The old way you could start HS in Algebra 2, Soph year: trig and Geo JR. year College Algebra and Sr year Calculus (both CA and calculus are dual enrollment from UMKC). Because of this the calculus class became expendable, when they cut that our math teacher who didn't teach quiz bowl but did teach above and beyond in math (in a 4 year period in a school class sizes around 50 he would be sending 7-10 people off into math intentsive fields) In 2004 he left the School district I believe he is at Oak Park now. Since then EB hasn't had a single engineering or other math intentsive major.

So Kids now get Freshman year Algebra 1, soph year Algebra 2, Jr. Geo, and now for Srs they teach a combined Trig/ College Algebra. So the top two things MSHSAA asks math on isn't taught to the kids until they are in there SR year.


As much as I work with them this season they maybe got 3 math questions at districts, and as most people know math is life in MSHSAA. I did however only start working with them on math in March. We already have plans made for Dr. in math and myself to hold several workshops in september/ october next season.

So needless to say the way we pick our team isn't the reason we are where we are. It was a series of complex factors that compounded into the mess we are in now.

Don't worry next season we will make it into the afternoon of districts and in two years we will be back at state.
This is especially true in finding people to round out the team. The top players probably will do well on the test, even as freshmen, but a player who scores just below the last spot may be a better asset to the team than the guy who scores one more point on the pretest but doesn't put much effort into it once he makes the team. Plus, there's team chemistry involved. A player who makes the team may not put as much effort into it or become disillusioned if his/her friends are cut. Maybe together they could have encouraged each other to become better. Having people who want to do well, learn, and get better is what forms the foundations of good teams.
Idk about NKC and most larger schools but the smaller schools kid really don't have chemistry issues. Most of these kids have grow up together, their families hang out together. So each kid knows pretty much what other kids are good at. One of the joys of small school life. I can count on one hand how many kids houses in my classI haven't been to.

MikeWormdog
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JV State 2007

Post by MikeWormdog »

It's good that you're working on math with the kids, and I'm sorry about the state of the East Buchanan math department, as well as your team's past coaching issues. I hope your team becomes successful. Many other subjects come up in tournaments as well, and building a team dominant on literature and history questions is no less rewarding, especially when competing against smaller schools. Your team still doesn't play enough to keep your players' interests and gets rid of potentially helpful players, even when you complain that it's hard to round up enough people to practice or participate in non-district tournments.

Regarding chemistry issues, it's not just an issue at "big" schools. It's true that NKC players haven't always been the best of friends, though sometimes they have gotten along very well (like the '99 team.) Some of Savannah's top teams (like their 1995 team) often didn't get along, and I'm sure other (often successful) teams have some similar stories.

As your posts have implied, what could I know about what makes a good team? My city-slicker ways and new-fangled book-learning are no match for your dubious folk knowledge. I suppose I'll just put on my monocle and stroll down to the haberdashery on the high street to pick up my newly-elbow-patched tweed blazers. After that, I'll check out the ascot selection, while you chuckle knowingly into your corn pone.

STPickrell
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Post by STPickrell »

MikeWormdog wrote:It's good that you're working on math with the kids, and I'm sorry about the state of the East Buchanan math department, as well as your team's past coaching issues.  I hope your team becomes successful. Many other subjects come up in tournaments as well, and building a team dominant on literature and history questions is no less rewarding, especially when competing against smaller schools. Your team still doesn't play enough to keep your players' interests and gets rid of potentially helpful players, even when you complain that it's hard to round up enough people to practice or participate in non-district tournments. 

Regarding chemistry issues, it's not just an issue at "big" schools. It's true that NKC players haven't always been the best of friends, though sometimes they have gotten along very well (like the '99 team.) Some of Savannah's top teams (like their 1995 team) often didn't get along, and I'm sure other (often successful) teams have some similar stories. 

As your posts have implied, what could I know about what makes a good team?  My city-slicker ways and new-fangled book-learning are no match for your dubious folk knowledge.  I suppose I'll just put on my monocle and stroll down to the haberdashery on the high street to pick up my newly-elbow-patched tweed blazers. After that, I'll check out the ascot selection, while you chuckle knowingly into your corn pone.
Even at a small school there is usually one or two players who will pick quizbowl over all else. In college for example, most of the teams I formed were me and a rotating cast of whoever was available. All I asked was that people cancel out by Thursday.

In high school, like many on here, I was wheeled out whenever my school needed someone smart. I would have picked quizbowl over band, math comps, forensics, or whatever -- and odds are most of the teachers would've told me to go to the quizbowl tournament since I was a #4 or #5 man (using basketball analogy) on other academic competitions, I was the key man for quizbowl.

It was me, my friend Ross, and a rotating cast (some people played more than others.) Senior year, in my regional league we went 7-1 with 14 players, everyone played once and no one played more than 4 games. The 1 loss was with me playing we just picked a bad category round.

Then the key is getting adults to go. Some school districts will let their team caravan down but others will insist on having a bus and that begins to cost money. This can run up the meter very quickly. Some schools don't mind if there is a parent "chaperoning" and others do.

ecks
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Post by ecks »

I've never really been a fan of tests or cutting people from quiz bowl teams. My senior year, the combined Varsity/JV teams had about 50 people at the beginning of the year, which, needless to say, is a lot. I actually asked my coach about cutting people, but he refused to.

Denying kids a chance to come to practice just seems against the whole spirit of quiz bowl. If they want to come and learn and have fun, so be it. You don't have to guarantee them playing time--my coach always made it abundantly clear that while he would try to play everyone at some time, winning was also important for the program and would play those people needed to win. Thankfully we had a really good team and could usually sub in people later in the game because we had built up a good buffer, but that wasn't always the case.

Eventually the team size trickled down to 30 as people began to realize they didn't have or want the dedication to get better and learn so that they could be part of the starters or reliable subbers. It was still a large team, but we had a ton of fun AND did well in competition.

Of course, my team also had the good fourtune of coming from a rather rich school district that owned its own buses, and we had good enough funding to get a school bus to take us everywhere, so accomodating 50 people wasn't too much of a problem (when we had our league games; most tournaments were either JV or V, not both).

East Buc & UMR
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Post by East Buc & UMR »

gets rid of potentially helpful players, even when you complain that it's hard to round up enough people to practice or participate in non-district tournments.
I can tell from playing in college at a certain point (usually around 12) the more people at practice the less productive it becomes. 8, 8 and who ever can come seems to work out nice.

Also from College I know all about helpful player. I looked for all types.

1. The kids that can play quizbowl at a college/HS level.
2. Those who could write questions
3. Those who can staff a tournament
4. and those who can play on our IM teams

needless to say in High school We have number one checked. They can also do 2. The kids who didn't make the team would happly staff. Most already play sports. Now if I'm missing where these kids could be helpful in some other way please let me know.

Also I don't think I even complained about rounding up enough players to practice. It is more dealing with all the other things they do our practice times are shifting all the time. Which if I remember right is where this whole banter came from.

MikeWormdog
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Post by MikeWormdog »

East Buc & UMR wrote:[

I can tell from playing in college at a certain point (usually around 12) the more people at practice the less productive it becomes. 8, 8 and who ever can come seems to work out nice.

Also from College I know all about helpful player. I looked for all types.

1. The kids that can play quizbowl at a college/HS level.
2. Those who could write questions
3. Those who can staff a tournament
4. and those who can play on our IM teams

needless to say in High school We have number one checked. They can also do 2. The kids who didn't make the team would happly staff. Most already play sports. Now if I'm missing where these kids could be helpful in some other way please let me know.

Also I don't think I even complained about rounding up enough players to practice. It is more dealing with all the other things they do our practice times are shifting all the time. Which if I remember right is where this whole banter came from.
I just got back from the haberdashery. It's difficult to argue with you, Bill, since you make no sense and don't respond logically. You're full of contradictions. You complain about it being difficult to find practice time for your players. They're involved in so many other activities, that it's impossible to have regular practice times and tournament attendance. I suggest that you encourage full-time, dedicated players rather than casual, part-time players with other priorities. Your team will get better this way. As Shawn said, I'm sure someone at your school would choose quizbowl as a priority. Then you say you have more players than you can deal with already, so your team has to cut them. These people never would have gotten better and are still glad to help out at tournament, so that's not a problem (even though you have to bend over backwards to find practice times that don't conflict with everyone's schedule). Your team is both successful (supposedly once one of the better teams in its district) and held back by the situation small high schools find themselves in (unable to compete with most teams). I thought this problem was the lack of a large enough pool of interested and able players in a school of only 200 or so. This must be at least a part of the problem (it's sometimes even a problem with large schools, as I have demonstrated), or why are small schools complaining?

Apparently your school has a huge program with enormous support and participation (enough participation that you can cut interested players who are deemed not good enough in tryouts), yet busy schedules hinder participation by every single potential player, so you don't participate in many tournaments or have practice at regular hours. Furthermore, your team was crippled by poor coaching a few years back. Also, your school has many, many wonderful activities with widespread participation. The one setback must be that these activities can rarely take place because everyone has prior commitments to other activities.

How can I suggest improvements for a team with both everything and nothing? I'll try one last time. Have practices at the same time every day, or at least have a consistent schedule. This makes it easier on your coach and your players. If they have schedule changes at the last minute, they can drop in or drop out. Let anyone who wants to practice practice. Give outside assignments to those who can't make it to practice but want to contribute anyway. Most of your players are apparently busy elsewhere, so the numbers at practice will be manageable, and everyone gets a chance to improve, hold a buzzer, and learn more. Some people will go to more practices and improve. Others will leave and give more attention to other activities in their already busy schedules and fall away. Some people might be unavailable for the first part of the year but come to you later, and others might not decide to play until their sophomore or junior years. Play more games and go to more tournaments, since they're fun, rewarding, and encouraging. Let playing time and status be based on merit and dedication rather than only what happened on the first day. There's nothing wrong with making people choose. More students will choose quizbowl as their priority if they actually get to demonstrate their quizbowl skills from time to time.

This is likely what you did in college. I doubt you cut people from the team, or discouraged potentially interested people because of pretests, or had practices at different times every week depending on people's wildly changing schedules. In quizbowl, like most activities, people who are interested show up, and those who aren't interested don't show up.

To everyone else...I'd be glad to offer any suggestions to any teams or players regarding practice, questions, study materials, or whatever, even those who agree with Bill's nonsensical arguments.

hugatree1715
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JV State 2007

Post by hugatree1715 »

To everyone else...I'd be glad to offer any suggestions to any teams or players regarding practice, questions, study materials, or whatever, even those who agree with Bill's nonsensical arguments.
I have some questions for everyone. Next year, I will almost definitely be Varsity captain. I want to make our whole program as good as possible. This year, we practiced twice a week for 1 1/2 hours each time. I don't think that's enough time, and our coach is busy many days of the week. Do you think a student/captain-led practice could be worth the time? Whether I held it in our normal room, or even at my house, I want to know if:

1) Do you agree with me that 3 hours a week isn't enough?
2) Do you think a captain-led practice without a coach would benefit the team?

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Jeffrey Hill
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Post by Jeffrey Hill »

hugatree1715 wrote:
To everyone else...I'd be glad to offer any suggestions to any teams or players regarding practice, questions, study materials, or whatever, even those who agree with Bill's nonsensical arguments.
I have some questions for everyone. Next year, I will almost definitely be Varsity captain. I want to make our whole program as good as possible. This year, we practiced twice a week for 1 1/2 hours each time. I don't think that's enough time, and our coach is busy many days of the week. Do you think a student/captain-led practice could be worth the time? Whether I held it in our normal room, or even at my house, I want to know if:

1) Do you agree with me that 3 hours a week isn't enough?
2) Do you think a captain-led practice without a coach would benefit the team?
That depends. Since Camp took over as head coach Liberty has only practiced on Tuesdays and Thursdays from 3-4:30*, so the same amount of time you do. A lot comes out of outside studying, and one way to do that is a student-led practice.

From about the middle of February until JV State of my senior year we had some informal practices at John's house nearly every Saturday where we just played through old question packets on buzzers borrowed from the school (and of course had intermissions of Mario Battle and such). I think it really helped the JV team improve and was part of why this year's Liberty team was as good as it was. I don't know how much my personal involvement influenced the Liberty JV team from my senior year but having Varsity members help the JV team develop as well as studying on their own is definitely something I would encourage.

So, 3 hours of official team practice a week can be enough but 3 hours of all types of practice (individual studying, informal group practices, official team practices, etc.) a week is definitely not enough.

*My sophomore year under Jones we practiced twice a week but they generally went to 5

MikeWormdog
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Post by MikeWormdog »

Some teams do ok with only three hours a week, but lots of teams (including all the successful ones in your area, to my knowledge) practice more than that. If it's only three hours a week, then you could be doing lots of stuff outside practice...going over lists, reading questions, reference books, etc., to make up for lost practice time.

When I was in school, sometimes our coach couldn't make it for at least part of the time (department meetings, dental appointments, etc.), but we practiced anyway. We would read questions and stuff like a normal practice. These practices generally weren't as productive as practices with our coach, but depending on how serious you guys are and your school/coach's policy of being left unattended in a classroom, it could work. Reading questions in practice can also be beneficial, because you can look over the questions carefully and some people are better visual than auditory learners. This might help some people more than just hearing questions (or partial questions) answered by other people. Also, you could learn new things on how words are spelled or pronounced that could help later on.

If you play in college, the practices are all student-run anyway, so it could work in addition to regular practices. If not, you can at least practice on your own or with one or two other people during your free time.

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Post by S.C.Mitchell07 »

McAuley practices from 12:05 to 12:29 on Mondays and Friday when there's school.

Does that say something?

East Buc & UMR
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Post by East Buc & UMR »

Well Mike frankly in your few months on the board I have found out you like to argue.

We start with small school vs. large school and end up here.
Apparently your school has a huge program with enormous support and participation (enough participation that you can cut interested players who are deemed not good enough in tryouts), yet busy schedules hinder participation by every single potential player, so you don't participate in many tournaments or have practice at regular hours. Furthermore, your team was crippled by poor coaching a few years back. Also, your school has many, many wonderful activities with widespread participation. The one setback must be that these activities can rarely take place because everyone has prior commitments to other activities.
I never once said the reason we don't go to tournaments is busy schedules. Nor as I have pointed out in other posts do we struggle to get people to come to practice. We just move practice around other things. We are flexible and sometime other activities work with us on this. If you remember this whole arguement started with me pointing out for small schools to survive the kids spread out over many different things. Other than you playing soccer (which is a fall sport if I remember correctly) the season is usually over before the start of tournaments in quiz bowl season noone has spoken up on things they also do.
How can I suggest improvements for a team with both everything and nothing? I'll try one last time.
Really did I miss these? You came across to me as how we are doing everything @$$ backwards up here in the hills.

Since the way you guys practiced/ pick a team is so great why did it take so long for NKC to be back to a state power?
This must be at least a part of the problem (it's sometimes even a problem with large schools, as I have demonstrated), or why are small schools complaining?


Once again sometimes happens at larger schools.

I honestly can't think of a kid since I've been with the program that played just quiz bowl. Would we be better if we had 4 kids and only 4 that all they did was quiz bowl. Sure you bet, would these kids be burnt out, you bet. How many kids on our current team would just play quiz bowl... ummm.... zero. How many kids (outside of 2% that don't do anything and drop out the day they turn 16) don't do anything for the school? 10 maybe.

The large number of kids isn't just a quiz bowl thing. In 2004 when our football team took 2nd, I had several people from mosports make the comment how a school our size could have 75 kids out for football. When some class 4 teams have well under that. Now before you get on a rant of if the football team cuts. We have 3 teams: Freshman (or a second jv depending on freshman kids out), a JV and V. Freshman usually play both ways. Varisity the best kids play. JV on the other hand the kids divide up into two groups A and B. The first half the A kids only play on the O side of the ball the B kids the D. At half they switch. Baseball, track, choir, the list goes on and on. We may only have 200 some kids but they enjoy and take pride in having large numbers out for event/ sports.

Awehrman
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Post by Awehrman »

Well Mike frankly in your few months on the board I have found out you like to argue.
He also likes winning arguments.
Other than you playing soccer (which is a fall sport if I remember correctly) the season is usually over before the start of tournaments in quiz bowl season noone has spoken up on things they also do.
I think other people are tired of this debate going on in a JV thread. I'm sure there are plenty of people who do other things. Mike played football, basketball and baseball his freshman year. Adam Cole on our 98 state champion team played tennis in the spring. Lots of other NKC players have played tennis over the years. A few have played golf. Chris Wonderly (among others) was in band (he continued at MU). Many of our players also competed in debate/forensics. Several also did school plays. Mike and I both did science olympiad (which practiced twice a week and had roughly 3-5 competitions a year that almost always conflicted with scholar bowl). I was involved in quite a few foreign language competions (Quel dommage!). We had students involved with student council, the yearbook, newspaper, chess club, investment club, and on and on. NKC also requires community service, which often can only be done on Saturdays. Lots of players had after-school jobs. Some were always in detention. I pretty sure every school is like this. Northside high school in Arkansas is the only one that I know of that forbid students from all outside activities. This is why they were a machine year in and year out. Yes, his players did often burn out, but generally not until they graduated.
Since the way you guys practiced/ pick a team is so great why did it take so long for NKC to be back to a state power?
I think this has probably been addressed before, but I'll go into it again. Mr. Allen's coaching relies heavily on dedicated students. NKC had a chain of terrific individual players with a varying number of supporting players. This may not be the best system, but it was not pre-ordained--it just sort of worked out that way. Mike followed a girl who was thought to be the best female player in the state at the time. Mike's teams were followed up by teams that I captained (with some very strong supporting players, I might add). Adam Hill would have been the next NKC all-stater, but he moved to Nixa between his junior and senior years. He won two state championships at Nixa built largely upon his base of knowledge from NKC. NKC took the loss of Adam fairly hard. They had some pretty good success with Jeff Dazey and then Jon Matthew, followed by many others and won several tournaments per year, but they had to defeat Liberty to go to state. I feel confident that NKC has had one of the top 5 teams in the state every year for the last 12 (or so) years. The district alignments (as pointed out in other threads) do not always show the relative strength of teams. Supposing that Charlie follows up his junior campaign with another district win next year, would you say that Liberty is no longer a state power?

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redliberte
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Post by redliberte »

Liberty has only practiced on Tuesdays and Thursdays from 3-4:30*
this is true, but another thing that is also a factor for liberty is that 1-2 times a week from October to April we practice for Science Knowledge Bowl- the varsity starting team is also the team for that competition. Granted, its all science, but it's another 1.5-3 hours a week with a buzzer in your hand, which is a benefit.
imho, the more time you can spend with a buzzer doing questions the better to improve your playing. studying a lot of lists and other reference materials is extremely helpful, but if you can't apply what you know at the critical moment then that knowledge won't do you a lot of good. you can be a bright kid, but that doesn't necessarily mean you'll be good at quiz bowl. not to disparage lists, i learned a lot of stuff from them, but i am a visual person as well, and hearing lots of questions helped to train the visual and auditory parts of my brain to work together to answer things.
i think student led practices work well for us as well. we do a lot of practicing during a study hall we all (well, i guess the 4 varsity starters) share, and while our team is a little short on focus- ^_^- i think it helps us. insanity is sort of our modus operandi, i think.

a note on the other conversation going on: I am personally glad we only practice formally twice a week. up until recently, i participated in (in addition to quiz bowl) debate, model un, orchestra, young democrats, girl scouts, and a very full class schedule. some of those activities had meetings and things to do after school, in addition to quiz bowl practices. it's not only kids from small schools that do everything, its any kid who wants to be competitive for college apps.

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Post by Jeffrey Hill »

Awehrman wrote: Supposing that Charlie follows up his junior campaign with another district win next year, would you say that Liberty is no longer a state power?
I don't think anybody can really conclude that now (that if NKC wins next year Liberty is no longer a state power) but we'll see how next season plays out. I'm not sure what your definition of "state power" is. At the moment NKC will have an incredible advantage with most of their team returning and most of Liberty's team graduating.

Liberty's JV team seems to be pretty strong but will have a very significant void to fill as the class of 2007 moves on to college. I still see Liberty remaining very competitive for at least the next couple of years, and probably much longer. Liberty finally made it to more distant tournaments this year (WUHSAC, UMR Spring) and I hope this continues (excluding state, the furthest tournament I played in was Mizzou my sophomore year).

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Post by East Buc & UMR »

Thank you Andy for finally providing some examples.

As for liberty we will see what the future holds. I would still consider then a state power this year because they likely would take home at least 3rd place at state. Since you left, and Chuq came on last season. NKC made state once I believe, sure liberty and Savannah were in the same district most of those season but how many second place finishes in that time? However Mike's, your's and Chuq NKC rank head and shoulders above those teams in the lean years.

As for Steph.
it's not only kids from small schools that do everything, its any kid who wants to be competitive for college apps.
while you may do it to put it on your college app... Almost everyone in my class did these things out of pride for our school. Wanting to see everything succeed. It really is something you have to experience for your self to understand. Just like I'm sure I missed several things from not going to a larger school. Trust me I know tons of people who have fought this fight before, and there really isn't a way to get around it other than you have to experience it for your self.

In small towns people really don't anything to hang a hat on other than the local school that just gets excited. Some schools have more tradition than others in that regrad. That is one of the major reasons I turned down several job offers so I could stay in the school district. Ask anyone that knows me I'm an EB nut, the sad part is I'm not the worst of the bunch, I'm fairly tame.

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Post by Jeffrey Hill »

redliberte wrote: this is true, but another thing that is also a factor for liberty is that 1-2 times a week from October to April we practice for Science Knowledge Bowl- the varsity starting team is also the team for that competition. Granted, its all science, but it's another 1.5-3 hours a week with a buzzer in your hand, which is a benefit.
I forgot about that, and yes, I agree that the extra buzzer time, even if it's only science questions, does really help.

Playing on the buzzer is without a doubt the most important thing. You really have to gain confidence with buzzing in when you (are pretty sure you) know the answer. Even after playing for 5 years I'm still pretty hesitant on the buzzer; there are plenty of times I know things but I don't buzz in because I'm waiting for another clue to make me more sure of my answer, and of course by that time somebody else has it.

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Post by Jeffrey Hill »

East Buc & UMR wrote: Since you left, and Chuq came on last season. NKC made state once I believe, sure liberty and Savannah were in the same district most of those season but how many second place finishes in that time
NKC has never placed below first whenever they've made it to state [under MSHSAA]. NKC went in 96-99, Savannah went in 2000 and took 2nd behind Adam Hill, and Liberty went from 2001-2006.

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Post by MikeWormdog »

ScoBo1987 wrote:
East Buc & UMR wrote: Since you left, and Chuq came on last season. NKC made state once I believe, sure liberty and Savannah were in the same district most of those season but how many second place finishes in that time
NKC has never placed below first whenever they've made it to state. NKC went in 96-99, Savannah went in 2000 and took 2nd behind Adam Hill, and Liberty went from 2001-2006.
My sophomore year (1995--pre-MSHSAA) we got third behind Savannah and SLUH. That was the first time we made it. The previous year we lost to Savannah (I think it was Savannah, could have been Liberty) in districts. In 1996-7 we beat probably the three of the top five teams in the state in districts (Savannah, Liberty, and Oak Park). Luckily Raytown wasn't in our district in 1996. They were very good. Kirksville in 97 was the only decently close game we played at the state tournament (though we played them twice, as well as the third place team (Marquette) twice--the unbalanced schedule may always remain a problem).

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JV State 2007

Post by johnboy81918 »

redliberte wrote: it's not only kids from small schools that do everything, its any kid who wants to be competitive for college apps.
I have to agree with Bill on this point. If somebody participates in an activity solely for the college app, he/she is doing it for the wrong reason. I do the activities I'm in because I choose to do them and want to succeed (for the most part). The onl exceptions to that (for me) are the service organizations that my mother insisted I join. I personally find them to be the biggest wastes of time, because nothing gets accomplished by those big groups. However, I do service on my own, with my church, etc., so it's not that I dislike doing service, I just dislike the concept of school service organizations, because they all suck. Like I said, the only reason I'm in any is because of my parents.

Still, I'm getting away from the main point of the post. Do activities because you enjoy them and want to contribute to a team. Being part of something greater than yourself is simply amazing, and team activities provide the perfect method to get involved. The college applications...are not worth the time one is wasting for others who might actually enjoy whatever activity could be in question.

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

I second that Mr. Allen's approach is contingent on the players caring and putting forth their own effort. This is apparent with our new JV this year because we have one girl who is not amazing, but she puts forth her energy into getting what she can. We have another player who could be phenomenal, but he doesn't put forth the effort so he ends up not getting that much. Then we have a player who absolutely WILL NOT listen to me or Mr. Allen when we say "you should know that" and as a result he gets nothing. Our final player says he's practicing, but he does nothing but goof off whenever he's in practice, to the point that everyone wants to defenestrate him. He's only gotten 1 tossup ever, and he's actually cost them some games. So the best player there is the one who listens to Mr. Allen and puts forth her own energy.
As for getting along, I would say our

Andy, I would mostly agree that NKC has been one of the top 5 teams for years. However, in 2005 they absolutely weren't. They didn't win anything but an easy conference. Once again, an example of players not putting forth energy: Taylor (that year's captain) could have been a phenomenal player but she got wrapped up in her social life and personal problems. I didn't start that year until March, and on my very first practice I whipped everyone there (including the entire varsity team, as in most of them scored nothing once I got on). And I wasn't that great then.

Our team now gets along. We had one player who was a real detriment because she wanted there to be "drama" with us, and she refused to think of it as a team sport and instead just wanted to get individual recognition and try to outdo me, which was basically impossible because she never practiced or anything. She'd buzz in on questions that I also knew and then would miss horribly. This year she moved for part of the year, then came back, still never practiced, which did cost us 3 specific gamesand then quit when she got put on the house team in tulsa. She then yelled at us, about having no team unity, which was nonsense. She was just mad because it was obvious she had no place there. Otherwise, I would say we get along.

I've had the same problem that Mike described where players that might be good quit when they see me play. One day in the fall when I had to leave school early I wanted to practice early, and basically all the new players never showed up again. I have no idea whether they could or couldn't be good.

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Post by STPickrell »

East Buc & UMR wrote: Thank you Andy for finally providing some examples.

As for liberty we will see what the future holds. I would still consider then a state power this year because they likely would take home at least 3rd place at state. Since you left, and Chuq came on last season. NKC made state once I believe, sure liberty and Savannah were in the same district most of those season but how many second place finishes in that time? However Mike's, your's and Chuq NKC rank head and shoulders above those teams in the lean years.

As for Steph.
it's not only kids from small schools that do everything, its any kid who wants to be competitive for college apps.
while you may do it to put it on your college app... Almost everyone in my class did these things out of pride for our school. Wanting to see everything succeed. It really is something you have to experience for your self to understand. Just like I'm sure I missed several things from not going to a larger school. Trust me I know tons of people who have fought this fight before, and there really isn't a way to get around it other than you have to experience it for your self.

In small towns people really don't anything to hang a hat on other than the local school that just gets excited. Some schools have more tradition than others in that regrad. That is one of the major reasons I turned down several job offers so I could stay in the school district. Ask anyone that knows me I'm an EB nut, the sad part is I'm not the worst of the bunch, I'm fairly tame.
Caveat: 300 students is considered tiny for VHSL -- the small school group has a few schools with 700 students which would make you 3A in most Missouri activities.

There are a few schools in VA that are like what Bill mentions. 300-400 students, yet 40-50 come out for football, 15 for quizbowl, 20 for basketball, etc. Is enrollment at East Buc growing?

The fact that 75 came out for football out of 150 or so young men (I'll guess there's a girl or two on the team but as a rule girls don't go out for football) is just incredible and is surely not the norm.

There are some schools in VA that have had trouble getting 25 to come out; I know of one school that had to literally demolish its football program and start anew with 9th and 10th graders, they did not play a varsity schedule in their district but instead played the very tiny private schools with perhaps 200 students for a couple years.

BTW in Virginia districts are fixed and typically major rivalries are factored into who gets in what district. I think it works better and is easier than having to draw up new maps ever year for every sport. also when a district takes up an activity it is considered somewhat unusual for a school not to enter in that activity or sport. I suspect a majority of HS principals in Virginia would be moderately concerned if they did not manage to field a quizbowl team -- granted they may have zero interest in doing non-VHSL quizbowl but they will at least try and field a team for VHSL.

Warren County is a growing community the school was perhaps 1100 students when I went there and is 1600 now, and lots of people moved in and out. In fact they are having to build a new high school.

OTOH we all went to school together from the 4th grade onwards. Our quizbowl success was somewhat of an aberration as Warren County was generally considered the armpit of the Shenandoah Valley in terms of economics, academics and general social atmosphere. I took quite a bit of pride in defeating other schools in the Valley that saw "Warren County" and thought "dumb." They only thought that once after facing us.

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Post by East Buc & UMR »

Is enrollment at East Buc growing?
We stay between 220-240 each cycle. Probably would be growing but the town hasn't built any new housing since I was in middle school.

The fact that 75 came out for football out of 150 or so young men (I'll guess there's a girl or two on the team but as a rule girls don't go out for football) is just incredible and is surely not the norm.
Nope no girls. That year was our largest year, however our lowest year in the past ten or so has been 59 kids. That did include back to back 1-9 years (good ole Mid buchanan).

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

STPickrell wrote: Our quizbowl success was somewhat of an aberration as Warren County was generally considered the armpit of the Shenandoah Valley in terms of economics, academics and general social atmosphere. I took quite a bit of pride in defeating other schools in the Valley that saw "Warren County" and thought "dumb." They only thought that once after facing us.
Same here for NKC. At least now, because NKC is increaingly getting the reputation (kind of deservedly) as a ghetto school. One board user said to me at a tournament "No one will belive we lost to NKC, and that they went undefeated in a scholar bowl tournament." We once got a talking to from a coach before a match about how wonderful their private school team was (which we promptly demolished). Other teams have made it very clear that they weren't taking us seriously (ahem SLUH/Visitation at Wash U ahem) because of our name. This ultimately gives us a great advantage over them because their guard is down. Those coaches tend to be the ones who give us "the look" after matches. Everybody expects Liberty to be good. Everybody expects Ladue to be good. Not really anybody who doesn't know otherwise would expect Northtown to be on that plane too.

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Post by FordATeam/CC »

MikeWormdog wrote: Your attitude towards larger schools doesn't help your team. It effectively says to your players, "We can't beat schools larger than us, so we don't bother playing." Rather than consult enrollment figures before deciding whether or not to attend an event, your team should just play more games.  How many matches did your varsity play? Not too many from the results I've seen.  If it's anywhere close to your JV games, then 31 in three years is not enough to field a really good team.  Many good teams (like Richland) play that many or more in a semester, and against better teams. That's why they beat you (not simply because they have 19 more students.)  Good teams get good by playing more games against good teams.  You'll get firsthand insight on what your team needs to do to get better and hear more questions and more clues.  Having a glossy JV or varsity record doesn't really mean anything--it depends on the teams you play.

Again, rather than whining about enrollments, your team should play more games.  There's no reason you can't play Savannah or Smithville. Certainly not Nixa, or Reed's Spring, or Ozark, since they're only a few miles away. Play teams from Arkansas. If you can, go to one tournament a year in Kansas City or St. Louis. Encourage larger schools to come to you. Yeah, the schools are bigger than you, and your team might lose more, but they would learn more and get better, maybe good enough to win districts.  Isn't that what you want? Your primary competition in your district is playing against larger schools (like Nixa, Savannah, Ozark, etc.) on a consistent basis.

Good teams don't necessarily come from "good" high schools. NKC isn't considered one of the best high schools in Missouri, often not even the best in its own district. I don't think Savannah is sending kid after kid to Yale or Stanford.  I also doubt Richland is a much better school than Fordland.  Most of what is learned for quizbowl is learned outside of the school curriculum.  It's done by practicing and playing lots of games, going over old questions, looking at reference books, and encouraging players to explore and learn as much as they can.
Sorry to reply so late. We've got prom tommorrow and I'm a sponsor again this year. So many things going on at school and home I haven't had much time to do more than skim the conversations from the last week.

First response: We do play some teams larger than us and we have beaten or at least stayed close to several of them. As a matter of fact, last year we were ahead of the defending class 3 3rd place team in the 4th quarter of a match in our first tournament of the season (Richland Tournament). We also nearly won our championship match in our home tournament last year against a strong Ava team (lost by 20), despite not having our strongest literature person and them being at full strength.

Second Response: We do try to play other quality teams, also. At the above Richland tournament, we also almost beat Thomas Jefferson (lost by only 10 or 15 pts to the eventual state champs). The year before, a strong Eugene team won one of the tournaments we attended (Coach Brown has stated that Eugene would have placed at state that year if they didn't meet Richland at districts). This year 3 of our 7 losses were to Richland (multi-time defending state champs).

Third Response: Our records from the last three years: 19-5, 25-5 (lost to 2 eventual state champs, a state 2nd place, a state 3rd place, and Ava (who would have been 3rd or 4th at state if they hadn't played both WCA and Savannah), and 21-7 this year. Compared to many smaller schools, I believe this record represents a pretty decent amount of competition we have tried to attend. After our 31 team invitational (18 varsity and 13 JV) we hope to use some of the profit to travel a little more next year. Our principal is even CONSIDERING letting us do an overnight trip, so we CAN go up against some tougher teams. Unfortunately, we aren't in a position where I can just decide to do something and then do it.

Finally, on the small school / big school topic: Just a few examples of why small schools sometimes have a little more to battle through:

1) I am not only the academic team coach, but also the cross-country coach for boys and girls, high school and middle school. Granted, our total program between the four is not that huge at a small school, but I say this to remind some that many teachers/coaches in smaller schools wear many different hats. When academic team season is over, I don't totally forget about it. I am constantly trying to find ways to make us better. However, I am also very competitive when it comes to trying to make my cross-country team better. Unfortunately, I figure this division in my energy probably isn't conducive to my academic teams' success. We don't start practicing until late October (at the earliest), because I don't want to slight my runners before districts and state. I am sure that I am not the only coach that goes through this, but I do figure more of this occurs in small schools than larger ones.

2) Our captain was also a starter on the varsity girls' basketball team. As a matter of fact, she missed the tournament we hosted because she found out after we scheduled it that basketball districts took place the same day. She is also our schools' valdedictorian, probably our top pitcher on our softball team, a starter from the volleyball team that won districts, and involved in a multitude of clubs which she is very dedicated to. While her case is an extreme case, it just gives a glimpse to how many activities academic team students often find themselves involved in when they attend smaller schools.

I am sorry if you take my statements as whinning. I am simply trying to give a small school perspective to the conversation. I do see a lot of progress in our region of the state and more to come in the future ( I was very impressed with many of the teams from our district and beyond as we played them through the season and have discussed with several coaches their plans for future tournaments earlier in the coming competitive year). I also see how many schools look at the available competition and wonder how they fit in. I tend to subscribe to the theory that if you give the smaller schools more opportunities to shine, then more schools will strive to shine.

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JV State 2007

Post by Ravi Fernando »

Two more notes about JV state...

When we played Liberty, we played our top few players almost the whole game ("almost" because I was subbed out for the worksheet round, in which I don't help very much anyway, mainly because of the scarcity of math in those rounds but also in part because of Laura's hair obstructing my view of the paper.









;) ) We won that game by 15.

When we played Savannah, I was subbed out for the middle three periods of the game because of Bill Luce's discussion with my coach. We lost that game by 5, but would have won by well over 50 with our best players.

Conclusion: Setting KV aside, Liberty's team was stronger than Savannah's.

In a very loosely related story, I believe I overheard part of a conversation between the Liberty players while waiting in the (excessively long) line at Taco Bell during the lunch break. If I heard correctly (I may not have because I wasn't listening closely... just waiting...) someone commented that next year, they would be varsity, because all the varsity players were seniors. I apologize if this is incorrect, but otherwise, that would weaken arguments about Kirksville's JV-ness, because both sides used their best non-seniors.

Note, just to prevent someone else from saying it first: I am NOT trying to attack Liberty in any way, or claim that they were violating rules and/or being shady, because that would be completely wrong as well as stupid. I'm just saying that KV wasn't being the epitome of shadiness that many of you have come to believe it is. I'm sure you'll find some way to counter this, but I honestly don't care anymore. With this post, I am washing my hands of the matter.

-Ravi

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Post by ecks »

Ravi Fernando wrote: With this post, I am washing my hands of the matter.
I can't help but be reminded of the Scrubs episode when Dr. Cox finds out that JD really did submit an interesting patient so he could win a trip to Reno and he says "This is me... washing my hands... of you."

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Post by DeckardCain »

Wow, I totally forgot about this thread... anyway, it's definitely true that a lot of small schools simply can't afford to send their academic team all over the state. I consider myself very fortunate that we got to make trips to Nixa and to Parkway Central my senior year, as that put us at a decided advantage over other teams in our district. I'd have loved to go places like Vanderbilt, NKC, Savannah (which we actually tried to go to, but could not), Arkansas, etc. but it was out of the question.

Coach Bertoldie makes some pretty valid points; however, there's one statement in his last post I cannot agree with:
1) I am not only the academic team coach, but also the cross-country coach for boys and girls, high school and middle school. Granted, our total program between the four is not that huge at a small school, but I say this to remind some that many teachers/coaches in smaller schools wear many different hats. When academic team season is over, I don't totally forget about it. I am constantly trying to find ways to make us better. However, I am also very competitive when it comes to trying to make my cross-country team better. Unfortunately, I figure this division in my energy probably isn't conducive to my academic teams' success. We don't start practicing until late October (at the earliest), because I don't want to slight my runners before districts and state. I am sure that I am not the only coach that goes through this, but I do figure more of this occurs in small schools than larger ones.
(emphasis mine)

Speaking as someone who did, in fact, find the time to participate in both quiz bowl and cross-country in high school (as well as a couple spring sports, but that's not really my point here...) I find it rather hard to believe that you can't begin practice until after cross-country season. Why not practice before school, or, if nothing else, just let the kids play a couple rounds a week on their own after school? I always find it necessary to start practicing well before competitive play begins, to shake the rust off and get buzzer timing down, and I imagine I'm not alone in this regard. Plus it keeps the wheels turning in the heads of the players, and they're sure to pick up a few new clues along the way.

I do think that, as important as it is to play games, and play competitive teams, it may not be as important as some here are making it out to be. Richland has been held up as an example here, but save maybe the Lexington tournament, they really don't travel out of the region all that much. Richland doesn't win state every year because they play Kansas City teams once or twice a season; they win state every year because they have dedicated coaches and a winning tradition, among other things. Of course, that's not exactly what was being said, and playing more games is a great way to make players better.

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Post by FZW Coach »

We never start official practices before the 3rd Monday in October where we will have approximately 50 students at the first practice. I do give my top players a binder on the first day of school, but we ease into things. It hasn't really hurt us all that badly. I really do wish the scheduling conflicts would not have plagued us this year (the snow, the timing of districts and our spring break), but what can you do?

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Post by ecks »

FZW Coach wrote: We never start official practices before the 3rd Monday in October where we will have approximately 50 students at the first practice. I do give my top players a binder on the first day of school, but we ease into things. It hasn't really hurt us all that badly. I really do wish the scheduling conflicts would not have plagued us this year (the snow, the timing of districts and our spring break), but what can you do?
Would you say that your practice starting time is typical for MO quiz bowl programs? 'Cause if that's the case, I'm a little worried about our HS tournament on October 13th... if a lot of programs haven't even begun their practices by then, it might mean we'll have to move our tournament date back to accomodate them... hrm...

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Post by DeckardCain »

Perhaps "when do you start practicing?" would be a good idea for another thread. Personally I find it a little hard to believe that the majority of schools who take quizbowl seriously wait much later than September to start practicing. For what it's worth, the UMR November tournament had nearly as many schools show interest as the March tournament, so it seems that several teams have started practicing by then, at least.

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Post by redliberte »

i think we started practicing about three weeks into the school year this year.

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Post by FZW Coach »

Most schools in our area start much earlier. I know the Howell schools start as soon as school starts. We just have always had the tradition of allowing the band kids and fall sports to finish before we start. This makes for a short season (mid October - early December) for most of them (which makes it possible to have a 35+ program). However, when we return to school in January, I keep the top 10 or so students and we become a little more focused (this year it was actually 12). These are the ones that are really dedicated to it. As a result, it actually would not be impossible for us to attend an early October tournament even if we had not officially started practicing. We scheduled a scrimmage with Parkway Central and Westminster the very first Saturday after our Monday practice. I knew we would not have any issues with that. The kids that are dedicated to it are looking at material even if we are not officially practicing. Plus, I see those students all the time (either before school, after school, or during class). So, even though we are not "practicing" there is work being done by the strong players.

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Post by Charlie Dees »

Umm, Ravi, Liberty being a bunch of JV players and happening to have the strongest varsity combination when playing seniors has absolutely nothing to do with Kirksville. Liberty's varsity is all seniors because those seniors make the best team.
Here's something to chew on: by you definition of JV, NKC's entire team at districts could be "JV." Most of Savannah's district team could be "JV."

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Post by FordATeam/CC »

DeckardCain wrote:
Coach Bertoldie makes some pretty valid points; however, there's one statement in his last post I cannot agree with:
1) I am not only the academic team coach, but also the cross-country coach for boys and girls, high school and middle school. Granted, our total program between the four is not that huge at a small school, but I say this to remind some that many teachers/coaches in smaller schools wear many different hats. When academic team season is over, I don't totally forget about it. I am constantly trying to find ways to make us better. However, I am also very competitive when it comes to trying to make my cross-country team better. Unfortunately, I figure this division in my energy probably isn't conducive to my academic teams' success. We don't start practicing until late October (at the earliest), because I don't want to slight my runners before districts and state. I am sure that I am not the only coach that goes through this, but I do figure more of this occurs in small schools than larger ones.
(emphasis mine)

Speaking as someone who did, in fact, find the time to participate in both quiz bowl and cross-country in high school (as well as a couple spring sports, but that's not really my point here...) I find it rather hard to believe that you can't begin practice until after cross-country season. Why not practice before school, or, if nothing else, just let the kids play a couple rounds a week on their own after school?
We run cross-country practice from 6:30 am until right before school. I run with my athletes, so morning A-Team practices are out of the question until after October. I would love to run some after school A-Team practices in the fall, but my two sons are watched by a family member before school and after school. She doesn't charge us, so I can't make her mad by adding more practices after school. Besides, most of my dedicated players have practices or jobs that would conflict with after school practice anyway. As for the kids doing some buzzer practice on their own, it won't fly if it is unsupervised. I don't have an assistant, so I don't have anyone else to share this load with.

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Post by Ravi Fernando »

ashkenaziCD wrote:Umm, Ravi, Liberty being a bunch of JV players and happening to have the strongest varsity combination when playing seniors has absolutely nothing to do with Kirksville. Liberty's varsity is all seniors because those seniors make the best team.
Here's something to chew on: by you definition of JV, NKC's entire team at districts could be "JV." Most of Savannah's district team could be "JV."
I already said I'd stop talking about this, but I can't help.

First: Yes, Liberty's seniors make the strongest team. However, my point there was that you would have a stronger argument if they had some non-senior varsity-level players, but didn't play them because of the guideline dealing with the definition of JV. Other than that, I agree with you. That was beside the point anyway.

Second: Yes, that's rather ironic. If you came to JV State and played your entire districts/state team as JV, I/we wouldn't (and obviously couldn't) argue with your right to do so. The rest of the state would be screwed, but there isn't a rule against it.

Tomorrow, it will have been a month since the competition. Personally, I think a month is enough time to thoroughly discuss it. I really don't see why we're still arguing about this. What are you trying to get out of this thread? An apology? A trophy? A sticker that says "I beat Ravi Fernando in a debate about JV State 2007!" in really small print?

We're nuking a dead horse.

-Ravi

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Post by ecks »

Ravi Fernando wrote: A sticker that says "I beat Ravi Fernando in a debate about JV State 2007!" in really small print?
Actually, we've already ordered these. You can pick them up at the SUB at Truman sometime over the summer, probably when the first session of JBA starts.

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Post by redliberte »

We're nuking a dead horse.
that's a highly amusing mental image.

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