FZW Coach wrote:Marc,
Thanks for your arguments concerning the value of math calculations. I certainly support all that you had to say. Congratulations on your state championship, the second of your career! That is quite impressive! I wish we had gotten that last question vs. NKC and had a chance to play you. The question still haunts me in my sleep . . . . Seriously (A Doll’s House)! The other day a girl in my stats class (only three left with the seniors having graduated) had an essay on a quote from the play on her desk. I almost cried. . . . . Too many close losses this year. Good luck with your college studies!
From what I understand the father of Charles Dees is a lawyer. He has certainly picked up many of the necessary skills to be good in that profession. His arguments against math are pretty persuasive and certainly have changed the minds of some of the contributors to this forum. Well done with that!
Why no math in college? I am assuming because you do not want to bother the math majors. When I was in college, the math club started an intramural quiz bowl tournament. We probably had 12 – 16 teams participate each year. That’s pretty good considering this was Culver-Stockton College with about 1000 students. My team finished 3rd the first year (stupid substitution mistake). We didn’t make the same mistake the next year. We just kept our main four in the entire time. We won! Math was involved (which was my area of expertise along with history - double major). I am not sure why you would want a game that limited your possible population, but you can certainly do what you want with this. The college game is certainly not my area of expertise.
I am planning on compiling a long list of good math computational questions. I will probably work on this tomorrow. I need this list by Wednesday when we have our meeting to show the value of math questions (computational and otherwise) to any who may question it.
Why would you not want a game that reflects the curriculum? Those of us who are educators believe in what we do and believe the game should reflect that effort. This allows us to promote the game easily in the school as one of our main cogs. At FZW, the principal had a display of our 2nd place/1st place trophies from tournaments this year. Additionally, he mentioned our state result in his graduation speech. Why would you not want a game that reflects what your teachers are doing on a daily basis?
Charles Dees, I certainly respect you in many things. However, your computational ability is not one of those areas. As a result, it is difficult for me to accept your argument that we would never want to test computational skills in good quizbowl at the high school level. When you and Brandon failed to answer x^2 – 4 = 0 (or it may have asked for the x-intercepts or roots of that function) last year when we played you at Kirksville, your entire argument against the value of math calculations seems somewhat lost on me. I believe good computational ability is quite valuable in many areas of life and is a legitimate subject to be asked in the game.
Of course, we lost the first game to NKC mostly because Grant was more aggressive with the math calculation questions than we were. I can live with that. “Well done” is what I say! I would much rather walk away feeling my opponent out played us than that the game did not really test our full ability.
I hope you had fun at NAQT Nationals. We may want to attend next year. It depends on how strong the team is looking. We will be returning 3 starters from the state team, so I guess anything is possible (Julia will be missed certainly).
Why no math in college? I am assuming because you do not want to bother the math majors.
Excuse me, but as I've said, I'm a math major, and I have no problem with there being no mathcomp questions on the college circuit. I enjoy having math theory questions, and I think theory questions are a fair, knowledge-rewarding way to test math knowledge.
I am not sure why you would want a game that limited your possible population, but you can certainly do what you want with this.
As I said, I (one of the best math computation players in Illinois) certainly don't feel limited. And the collegiate circuit, as well as several other state circuits, are perfectly fine without math computation.
I am planning on compiling a long list of good math computational questions.
If you do get this list, please post it to the board so that we can see what a good math computation question looks like. If it is true that there is a pyramidal math question that rewards actual math knowledge and satisfies the criteria of good quizbowl-writing that other questions are expected to follow, as opposed to the important higher-level math ability of doing third-grade multiplication fast, I will have nothing more to say.
Why would you not want a game that reflects the curriculum?...Why would you not want a game that reflects what your teachers are doing on a daily basis?
Yeah, let's have the students properly use exercise equipment, drive automobiles, and cook a dinner to appease those physical education, driver's education, and home economics teachers that want their curriculum to be represented.
Real quizbowl also doesn't ask science questions that require an experiment to be done, literature questions that ask for an analysis of a literary passage, or social studies questions that require analysis of primary sources. Such topics are very important parts of the curriculum (just look at the format of the Advanced Placement tests in Biology, English Literature, and US History), but there are no such questions in quizbowl because it is impossible to good questions on those subjects. Similarly, good quizbowl doesn't ask computational math questions, even though computation is an important part of high school math.
Why should 20% of the questions have a completely different format so that this ridiculous appeal to the curriculum can occur?
Charles Dees, I certainly respect you in many things. However, your computational ability is not one of those areas. As a result, it is difficult for me to accept your argument that we would never want to test computational skills in good quizbowl at the high school level.
Coach Gibbs, please stop using ad hominem attacks. I am one of the best math players in Illinois, and I am arguing the exact same things. Several other members of the quizbowl circuit are math majors, and they also argue against computation.
When you and Brandon failed to answer x^2 – 4 = 0 (or it may have asked for the x-intercepts or roots of that function) last year when we played you at Kirksville, your entire argument against the value of math calculations seems somewhat lost on me.
Ah yes, the good old Chewbacca defense. This line of reasoning makes no sense.
I believe good computational ability is quite valuable in many areas of life and is a legitimate subject to be asked in the game.
Let me edit this statement for you:
I believe sewing is quite valuable in many areas of life and is a legitimate subject to be asked in the game.
I believe cooking is quite valuable in many areas of life and is a legitimate subject to be asked in the game.
I believe knowledge of auto mechanics is quite valuable in many areas of life and is a legitimate subject to be asked in the game.
Do you still stand by your statement?
Of course, we lost the first game to NKC mostly because Grant was more aggressive with the math calculation questions than we were.
If by aggressive, you mean "jumping in before enough information is given," I find this disturbing. Note that pyramidal questions give you all the information you need to uniquely identify the answer by the end of the first clue. Only in math computation is it possible to give the ridiculous argument that someone should wait for the entire question to be finished lest they get hosed.
I would much rather walk away feeling my opponent out played us than that the game did not really test our full ability.
"I'm still mad that we lost to Thomas Jefferson at PACE in 2008 because there wasn't a 1/1
Legends of the Hidden Temple distribution to test my full ability!"
As you can see, that argument is utterly ridiculous. If you want to have math team people do math calculations, then HAVE THEM DO A ****ING MATH CONTEST! Don't force the rest of us to play 20% of our questions in a completely different format consisting of "curriculum-based" problems that require no more than a fourth-grade education to solve--provided that you don't get hosed.
<div class="editby">Edited by
<a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Compe ... jaguar3</a>, May 31 2009, 07:05:51 PM.</div>