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Bradleyville Tournament Organization 
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Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Bradleyville, Missouri
Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
For those who have been keeping track of the little 250 student school Bradleyville, I have great news... and no I didn't save money on my car insurance by switching to... well, I getting off topic.

After recently talking to my coach, Bradleyville will be having a tournament! :D We are just needing a little help from those who know how to organize tournaments.

First things first, my coach is convinced that our tournament has to follow MSHSAA format, or we won't be able to go to districts, meaning we can't use the 20/20 Tossup/Bonus format if we have a tournament. For those who have ran tournaments, and I believe Mr. Gibbs, do we have to follow MSHSAA format, or can we do 20/20? If we can use 20/20, I have told her that we need to use pyramidal questions to make it a good tournament, following the advice of the wise ones. I told her about NAQT and HSAPQ, while I figure its too late for HSAPQ, NAQT is still an option, though it won't be a state qualifier. (Note: We would have to be some kind of crazy.)

Second, what would be a good team registration price? I see most don't go below $50, some as high as $70. What would the majority of you recommend?

So with that out of the way, here is what I know so far:
1. Our tournament will be sometime in January, I have already informed our coach on the dates of other tournaments, such as Richland's.
2. Due to prior obligations, we have to extend invites to our conference schools first. For the first tournament, we are in agreement that we should only have eight teams at first. So far, we have received interest to play from Chadwick and Niangua, as to our other schools, we believe only Hurley and Lutie would show interest. After those schools, I believe we will invite other local schools. Seymour expressed interest to play us at some time, and I know two more who if invited would show up easily. Seeing other local schools, I know of a few that may show up, simply because of their proximity to Bradleyville.
3. The good news is we already have three moderators, and could easily get a forth, even sixth, seventh, and eighth, just remembered we need scorekeepers. Our JV team can provide us with spotters and timers, while I know we can very easily solve lunch. For those who have never been to Bradleyville, our town is made up of a feed store, church, post office, gift shop, and a gas station that doesn't sell gas, and overcharges on its food.
4. We agree that we will use a round robin format. I have recommended four rounds, with a semifinal, final, and third-place game, but I think I will ask for a quaterfinal, which will even give the poor lowly team who went 0-4, a chance to be the spoiler and win the entire thing.

This is only in concept right now, but a response to the top two questions would help us a lot.


Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:26 pm
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
The tournament definitely does not need to follow MSHSAA format.
- The 3 Liberty sets I [helped] edit were 15 TU/ 10 TU+BO/ Lightning Round / 15 TU, and that was typically the format in previous Liberty tournaments as well. This format has also been used at other KC area tournaments.
- NKC has hosted an NAQT tournament and their format in previous years was a unique 4-quarter format
- Some tournaments (Smithville, NKC) have included worksheets
- Some tournaments (Savannah) have had shorter bonus periods and other modifications like that.

Besides, if they were to have that ridiculous restriction, it would probably apply to any host and not just a MSHSAA school, so if that were the case we wouldn't be able to host our fall tournament next week, for instance.

If you use NAQT, I believe there are always automatic bids for HSNCT, provided that there are enough teams in attendance. Charles know more about this than I do, though.

I've never really dealt with pricing so I can't really help you there.

If you run on HSAPQ/NAQT, you can easily run more rounds, especially since rounds are shorter and you have to buy the whole set anyway. This is essentially what your tournament should end up doing, because there are a grand total of 0 reputable writers currently providing questions in the MSHSAA format.

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For the first tournament, we are in agreement that we should only have eight teams at first.

What exactly do you mean by this?


Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:54 pm
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
What I mean is we don't want to end up overwhelming ourselves with too many teams playing and not enough staff, so our coach decided that limiting a tournament to eight teams, including us, would give some of these lesser known schools the ability to compete and gain experience, thus helping to improve quizbowl quality (hopefully) in the southwest area, a place where outside of a limited few, needs it. Some of these schools, like Niangua and Lutie, are actually halfway decent, and if they had a clue what they were doing, would be some of the best teams in their classes.

Thanks on the format by the way, I will see she gets the message.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/3003741/'>Fresh Prince of Bradleyville</a>, Dec 5 2008, 11:10:21 PM.</div>


Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:07 pm
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
Yeah, that is a hilariously grave misconception. There is absolutely no rule banning teams from districts if they host non-MSHSAA style tournaments.


Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:08 pm
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
Coolness on the format, but what I forgot to mention is that two of those local teams are major state players one, and two, this will definitely provide some excitement if we get down to us, those two, and a dark horse like a Niangua, Lutie, or Hurley. These guys haven't played districts in a while, but Niangua is starting to get actively involved, and are actually planning to go to districts (I had a discussion with their fearless leaders, told them to pray they don't get stuck with Thomas Jefferson).


Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:20 pm
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
the last ramsfan wrote:
So on the format, your basically saying we can run a 20/20 NAQT style, and MSHSAA can't do anything to us, say like keep us from competing in districts? If that's the case, I will have her know immediately
Yes. If this were the rule, Liberty could not have participated in districts in any year it hosted a tournament, and we obviously did, so there is no problem with running a tournament in the 20/20 format.

So you are planning to limit the field to something like 8 teams because of resource limitations. This is understandable. I would much rather see a well-run 8 team tournament than a disastrous larger tournament causing teams to dislike the questions.

So given this, your tournament's objective would be to introduce southwestern MO teams to the 20/20 format.

I would definitely use an NAQT A-set; they are intended for teams that are new to the format. Even though standard IS-sets really aren't that difficult, I would hate to see teams dismiss the 20/20 format due to perceived difficulty. This field limitation should actually make this easier, since IS-82A is going to be used by NKC (on Jan. 17), and IS-84A is going to be used for KC Suburban conference, and with your field limitation neither tournament should have to worry about keeping teams from going to the other. Actually, you might even be able to use IS-80A (the one Mizzou used in November, unless they claimed geographic exclusivity for the state), assuming that none of these teams would be attending, and leave 82-A and/or 84-A for some other tournament that's more centralized/has a bigger field.

A-sets have 12 games. Assuming 8 teams, you should do a full round-robin (7 games should take no more than 4 hours), and then one of two things for playoffs. Preferably, you would put the top 4 teams in a pool to play another full round robin (3 games) to play for the championship, and the bottom 4 teams in another pool simply to play more games. This would guarantee every team 10 games (how many Missouri tournaments can say that???). You would then have 2 packets left over in case you had a tie for first in the championship pool and had to play a tiebreaker game. Alternately, you could place all the teams in a single-elimination bracket (though it's highly discouraged), but it would result in the exact same number of rounds, so why would you do this and effectively send teams home early for losing a single game? In either case, assuming your tournament starts at 9, 1/2 hour for each round, and an hour for lunch, you'd be done by 3:00. Not a long day by any standard!

Of course, if you would like some scheduling advice on larger fields, don't hesitate to ask.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/88961/'>U. Lou Sthagaim</a>, Dec 5 2008, 11:38:43 PM.</div>


Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:34 pm
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
Jeffery... cool doesn't even define that idea. There is a word, but that is on a level of cool we haven't seen since Fresh Prince.

Seriously, unless I can't make it to school on Monday, I will tell our coach your idea. Those two teams by the way that are state competitors, one would be Fordland, which would blow A-sets out of the water, and Norwood, who may blow A-sets out of the water, but I will definitively keep them in mind.

10 rounds though, is insane, and 3:00 wouldn't be a problem, we could start at 9:30 or 10:00 and most of those teams would at least be home by 5:00 or 6:00. Believe me it's better than getting home at 11:45 from a basketball game.

Now getting our coach to see this idea will be as easy as bypassing the school filter to get to this board. Hmmm...I wonder, has anyone figured out what the new password is yet. It's been a while since they had to change it, surprisingly.


Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:54 pm
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
NAQT wrote:
Hosts of open tournaments (i.e., events that are not restricted to teams in a pre-existing league, a single city, or a single county) must purchase geographic exclusivity for the state in which the event is hosted.

NAQT wrote:
All tournaments receive geographic exclusivity for the state in which they are hosted.

Wait a minute... it looks like geographic exclusivity is automatic for the state it's hosted in (though these statements somewhat contradict), so IS-78A (UMR Fall), IS-80A (MU Fall) and IS-82A (NKC) all appear to be off limits. Since IS-84A is for a closed conference, it shouldn't apply and is apparently the only A-set left for the entire state. I hope NAQT can give some leeway on this...


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/88961/'>U. Lou Sthagaim</a>, Dec 5 2008, 11:58:21 PM.</div>


Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:57 pm
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
Quote:
Now getting our coach to see this idea will be as easy as bypassing the school filter to get to this board.


Just to comment, your coach can probably put in a request to get this board unblocked. Both Coach Gibbs and I (different schools and districts) have had this issue, and, for both of us, it was as easy as sending an email (well, in my case, getting my coach to send an email) to the technology department to ask them to unblock this site.

Just to note, though, make sure they unblock the http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/index/ site, and not just www.moquizbowl.com. Doesn't the latter just link to the former? I think that was the issue when I tried to get it unblocked...


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89143/'>Charbroil</a>, Dec 6 2008, 12:00:13 AM.</div>


Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:59 pm
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
All the teachers know the password.

Jeffery, I looked over NAQT's sample questions. If we couldn't use an A-series, couldn't we just use a regular NAQT set? Granted it's a little harder, but it wouldn't bother the majority of those schools (most think the ones we used were way too easy).


Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:10 am
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
I'm sure NAQT would grant an exception to the exclusivity rule for this, especially if you used one of the A-sets that are being used in Kansas City, as I can't see any of your prospective teams driving to, say, NKC, or vice versa.


Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:25 am
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
the last ramsfan wrote:
Jeffery, I looked over NAQT's sample questions. If we couldn't use an A-series, couldn't we just use a regular NAQT set? Granted it's a little harder, but it wouldn't bother the majority of those schools (most think the ones we used were way too easy).
Yeah, you would probably be fine with a regular IS set; they really aren't that difficult. I guess I'm paranoid about the potential for spreading the erroneous "20/20 is harder" opinion, based on how Truman State's tournament was received by the smaller schools up there (though I think the difficulty was higher than an IS set) and how low the scoring was on the question set that CCOMBB produced for Fordland's 2007 tournament (a MSHSAA set with pyramidal questions; again, the difficulty was probably a little higher). My suggestion was also partially influenced by the fact that NKC is also using an A-set, where past HSNCT participants Liberty and Savannah will (presumably) be in attendance, among other decent teams. It's quite possible that I am underestimating the teams that would be attending your tournament; you know infinitely more about their skill level than I do, so you'd be a better judge in deciding which set is appropriate.

Quote:
Just to note, though, make sure they unblock the http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/index/ site, and not just www.moquizbowl.com. Doesn't the latter just link to the former? I think that was the issue when I tried to get it unblocked...

Yes, moquizbowl.com just forwards you to the zetaboards URL so both would have to be allowed to access through moquizbowl.com.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/88961/'>U. Lou Sthagaim</a>, Dec 6 2008, 02:31:55 AM.</div>


Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:29 am
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
I think I should mention that the sample sets given are not actually very representative of any current NAQT product. I personally am all for more IS set use, but I wouldn't be shocked if teams around you were surprised by the length of all the tossups. However, I'm all for exposure to any good questions, so I think an A-set, IS set, or HSAPQ set would be worth your using.
To answer Jeffrey's question, with NAQT any time you use a set of theirs, the top 15% of teams + the top small school if they placed at least in the median of the field will get a bid.
I am kind of curious what the statement
Quote:
I told her about NAQT and HSAPQ, while I figure its too late for HSAPQ, NAQT is still an option, though it won't be a state qualifier. (Note: We would have to be some kind of crazy.)
is supposed to mean. What would be too late for HSAPQ? Do you mean that the tournament is too soon? I can assure you that HSAPQ would be able to provide you questions were you to ask for them, no differently than NAQT. I wonder where you got this idea. Also, your comment about state qualifiers is baffling. There is only 1 NAQT state tournament, and the only reason it's called a Qualifier is because MSHSAA won't let them call it a state championship instead. It's just a label for that 1 particular event that is designed to accommodate as many teams from around the state as are interested in playing, so there is no reason that your event would be the same thing.
As for registration price, I would say keep in mind how much your school has to pay for questions. They aren't free, that's for sure. $60 would probably be able to cover it, but that depends on whether you go with an A-set ($12.50 per team plus $85, minus $50 if you keep statistics that you submit to NAQT), an IS set ($16 per team, plus $85, minus $50 if you keep stats), or HSAPQ which is a flat $18 per each team without any added fee.

Quote:
3. The good news is we already have three moderators, and could easily get a forth, even sixth, seventh, and eighth, just remembered we need scorekeepers. Our JV team can provide us with spotters and timers, while I know we can very easily solve lunch.
You shouldn't need more than 4 moderators if your tournament has only 8 teams.
Something else that concerns me is this:
Quote:
4. We agree that we will use a round robin format. I have recommended four rounds, with a semifinal, final, and third-place game, but I think I will ask for a quaterfinal, which will even give the poor lowly team who went 0-4, a chance to be the spoiler and win the entire thing.
This is a round robin format? Let me make something clear - if you use 20/20 format, your games will take only 20 minutes to run unless your moderators are terrible. Thus, there is no reason to stay bound to silly MSHSAA anachronisms about the format when you have so much extra time. I would strongly encourage you to increase this to a true round robin format where all 8 teams play each other once in the prelims. For the playoffs, I would highly recommend some rebracketed pool play - if you put the top 4 teams in a bracket and have them play another round robin, that has now given them 10 games. If you carry over prelim records, you then would have an ACF format final (which means if the top 2 teams have the exact same record, they play a 1 game final, if they have a one game difference in record, they play a best 2-of 3 final, with an advantaged win automatically given to the top team, and if the top ranked team has 2 more wins than everyone else, they automatically win). If you are feeling extra generous, you could have the bottom 4 teams also play a round robin just so they get more playing time for their money, even though they wouldn't be eligible for the title. If you are wary of the time this would take, if you allot 30 minutes for each round - in 20/20 format, that should be more than enough time for teams to get settled, play a game, and then move in to their next room - then you can easily run the first 5 rounds between 9 and 11:30, take an hour lunch, and then get back for the last 2 prelim rounds, a small break for rebracketing, and then play the 3 playoff games in an hour and a half. That's a total of 5 hours playing quizbowl, which really is about on par with a 7-round MSHSAA event. If you find something different, that may also work, but I would strongly encourage you to pick a fairer format that does not use single elimination and that increases the number of games available to everyone considering that 12 to 15 games are provided by all of these question options. Remember, while an integral part of a good tournament, pyramidal questions are only part of what makes a tournament truly high quality.


Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:03 am
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
Charlie, have to agree with what you're saying. I have never played on a 20/20 format, so I had no clue how long it took. I knew it was shorter, but I didn't know it would cut it down that much. That being said though, I like it. I got to play on Pickrell's questions at state last year. Granted they probably aren't his masterpiece of question writing, I definitely liked them better. Also, what I meant on being to late for HSAPQ was that I figured you guys would have to create questions from scratch. This is me in my "infinite" tournament organization knowledge.

On the round robin format, I was saying 3-4 rounds when I thought we had to follow MSHSAA format restrictions that didn't exist. Doing the math you gave me, 7 prelim rounds at tops 30 minutes with a 10 minute rebracketing, then 3-4 rounds for the championship, with the others getting experience would be 5 and a half hours plus an hour for lunch and ten minutes for awards would be seven hours. Starting at 9 and ending at 4, the latest any of the teams would get back would be 5:30.

Also, I know that if we asked HSAPQ, I am sure you guys would gladly provide questions. I have been to the website, and saw who to contact. As I said before, I will inform our coach on the rules, questions, etc.


Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:32 pm
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
Any update on this?


Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:52 pm
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
Here is the update:

Our coach is very persistent in wanting a MSHSAA format. I have tried talking to her about how a 20/20 would be more beneficial, but to no avail. Any suggestions on how to get a person to see the light. Also, could someone tell me that what I've seen on HSAPQ's website is true? $18 for each team in attendance. If so... THAT'S AMAZING!


Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:22 am
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
Actually, the website isn't current enough to reflect that the price is really $16 per team.


Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:08 am
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
I talked to Charles Hang last night about our tournament and apparently a lot of teams are still looking for MSHSAA-style tournaments. However, reputable companies such as HSAPQ only produce pyramidal, good-quizbowl sets. You can't really have it both ways or even compromise anymore. Pickrell's questions were the closest thing we had to a link between MSHSAA and good quizbowl. With him out of the picture, you can choose between crappy questions in the state format or challenging, well-written questions in the college format...but there is no middle-ground. Try, try, try as hard as you can to show how the HSAPQ questions are much more cost effective. You are getting many more clues for your money!


Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:23 pm
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Post Bradleyville Tournament Organization
I guess I'll go ahead and post my semi-yearly reminder that there is nothing about the Missouri format that makes it necessary to only play using the Missouri format. I'll presume that everyone on this board is familiar with its format and distribution; that's really all you need, and should feel free to experiment with other formats.

Colten: in that case, what I would suggest is securing questions from a reputable source and formatting them yourself to conform to the Missouri format, which is what we are doing with the Missouri S&T Spring Tournament. This is kind of time-consuming, so I'd suggest getting started on this as soon as possible, assuming you're still shooting for a January date. Feel free to email me at mwchadbourne@gmail.com if you have any questions about this.


Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:43 pm
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