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Bonus representation (I'm sure this already was brought up)

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merv1618
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Bonus representation (I'm sure this already was brought up)

Post by merv1618 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:10 pm

I find the fact that most HSNCT/PACE-relevant MO tournaments still list bonus conversion as a decimal out of one ridiculous. It shouldn't be a matter of software or anything of the sort as almost nobody else uses the 1.00 system anymore. Even NSC finally switched to 30.00.

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Mickey0R0urke
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Re: Bonus representation (I'm sure this already was brought up)

Post by Mickey0R0urke » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:40 pm

I just need help figuring out how to get SQBS to display it as a number out of 30 rather than a decimal out of 1.

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merv1618
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Re: Bonus representation (I'm sure this already was brought up)

Post by merv1618 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Mickey0R0urke wrote:I just need help figuring out how to get SQBS to display it as a number out of 30 rather than a decimal out of 1.
1) I highly doubt you're the only one who needs to know this, but that being said

2) People should just ask this stuff

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Jeffrey Hill
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Re: Bonus representation (I'm sure this already was brought up)

Post by Jeffrey Hill » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:42 pm

(I'm sure this already was brought up)
Yes it was

Current bonus calculation is: points scored/points possible; results in a bonus calculation of [0,1]
Desired bonus calculation is: points scored/3 part bonuses heard; results in a bonus calculation of [0,30]
To achieve this, divide bonuses heard in each SQBS entry by 30 (e.g. "360 points possible" becomes "12 bonuses heard")

Current bounceback calculation is: bounceback points scored/bounceback points possible; results in a bonus calculation of [0,1]

Is this desired, or is the desired range [0,10] (as in, "5" would indicate half of the bouncebacks were converted)? The 2012 NSC had bounceback conversion in the range [0,1], but in 2013 we started using [0,10], although there was some confusion between the different control rooms about which system to use for bouncebacks. ([0,10] would be "points scored/bounceback parts heard", so you just divide BBHrd in each SQBS entry by 10; e.g. 120 bounceback points becomes 12 bounceback parts)

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merv1618
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Re: Bonus representation (I'm sure this already was brought up)

Post by merv1618 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:57 pm

Jeffrey Hill wrote:
(I'm sure this already was brought up)
Yes it was
Haaaaa. No irony there.
Jeffrey Hill wrote: Current bonus calculation is: points scored/points possible; results in a bonus calculation of [0,1]
Desired bonus calculation is: points scored/3 part bonuses heard; results in a bonus calculation of [0,30]
To achieve this, divide bonuses heard in each SQBS entry by 30 (e.g. "360 points possible" becomes "12 bonuses heard")

Current bounceback calculation is: bounceback points scored/bounceback points possible; results in a bonus calculation of [0,1]

Is this desired, or is the desired range [0,10] (as in, "5" would indicate half of the bouncebacks were converted)? The 2012 NSC had bounceback conversion in the range [0,1], but in 2013 we started using [0,10], although there was some confusion between the different control rooms about which system to use for bouncebacks. ([0,10] would be "points scored/bounceback parts heard", so you just divide BBHrd in each SQBS entry by 10; e.g. 120 bounceback points becomes 12 bounceback parts)
Well yes, that is an apt description of how it works. However nothing has changed since then, meaning either I'm screaming about nothing or people are reluctant to change (such a foreign concept in Missouri quizbowl, right?)

I'm not set out to bash MOQBA at all, but I know I'm not the only one who finds the .XX system off. PACE's X/30, X/10 works perfectly. I see no reason why it can't be implemented.

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christino
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Re: Bonus representation (I'm sure this already was brought up)

Post by christino » Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:25 pm

The entry boxes in SQBS seem to make it pretty clear that they want bonus points divided by the number of bonuses and bounceback points divided by number of bouncebacks, which would result in the 30/10 display of PPB/PPBB. Do the scoresheets tally total number of possible bonus points instead of total number of bonuses heard?

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Re: Bonus representation (I'm sure this already was brought up)

Post by Jeffrey Hill » Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:00 pm

However nothing has changed since then, meaning either I'm screaming about nothing or people are reluctant to change (such a foreign concept in Missouri quizbowl, right?)
I'd say it's more likely that people just forgot the earlier discussion. I remembered that we did 30/10 for NSC, agree that it is easier to interpret, and was planning to do that for all future tournaments I do stats for, but I wasn't in charge of stats at MFAT.
christino wrote:The entry boxes in SQBS seem to make it pretty clear that they want bonus points divided by the number of bonuses and bounceback points divided by number of bouncebacks, which would result in the 30/10 display of PPB/PPBB. Do the scoresheets tally total number of possible bonus points instead of total number of bonuses heard?
The scoresheets used at MFAT don't have any total boxes for bonuses.

I think I picked up the "points scored/points possible" method from Mizzou; I think they've always done it that way. Strangely, I've never really been consistent with how I've done bouncebacks.
  • For Liberty's tournament in 2009 I originally tried doing bouncebacks out of 30 by using decimal parts (e.g. for 7 bounceback parts I tried 2.33) but that didn't work, so the values are not entirely accurate.
  • It looks like I used 30/1 for Savannah's 2011 tournament (which they used again in 2013 after not having bouncebacks in 2012). I may have picked that up from PACE, who first used that in 2010 (the first year I was involved with doing NSC stats).
  • It looks like I've used 1/1 for all NKC tournaments with bouncebacks.
I can't think of any other bounceback tournaments I've personally done stats for.

I made my own scoresheets a while back (I think they have only been used at NKC tournaments so far) that ask for total possible points for both original and bounceback. I am going to modify them to use 30/10 instead of 1/1.

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Mickey0R0urke
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Re: Bonus representation (I'm sure this already was brought up)

Post by Mickey0R0urke » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:24 pm

I fixed the bonus representation thing, along with a few fixes Ben gave me for Ladue's rounds.

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Mewto55555
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Re: Bonus representation (I'm sure this already was brought up)

Post by Mewto55555 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:08 am

I've always found the fact that MOQBA almost always get accurate stats up immediately after the tournament far cooler than any sort of conformity to some pointless aesthetic standard. Maybe it's because I can multiply by 30 in my head though.

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Charlie Dees
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Re: Bonus representation (I'm sure this already was brought up)

Post by Charlie Dees » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:36 pm

You really care that much what websites showing statistics from high school quizbowl tournaments look like?

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merv1618
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Re: Bonus representation (I'm sure this already was brought up)

Post by merv1618 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:17 am

ashkenaziCD wrote:You really care that much what websites showing statistics from high school quizbowl tournaments look like?
Well that's the pot calling the kettle mildly ochre.

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Charlie Dees
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Re: Bonus representation (I'm sure this already was brought up)

Post by Charlie Dees » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:43 am

Yeah, I mean, I grew up and realized "I don't actually give a shit what tournaments in other states that I will never attend do as long as they run good tournaments," and you're a 21-22 year old who barely plays quizbowl who lives in Chicago, and it's not so much "ridiculous" to have perfectly readable statistics that don't exactly mesh with what you would prefer to read, as it is "ridiculous" to care enough to decry the way Jacob did stats when you have 0 investment in it or reason to care. If the tournaments sucked that would be a totally different thing, but why do you, a non-participant, feel it is necessary to yell about a website of statistics not adhering to your personal aesthetic preferences? Do you really have nothing better to do with your freetime? Because I sure do, and you sure do too. Stop looking for drama, stop making stupid responses to Jacob (to requote an outsider who read this thread:
"sperber: NEED DO THING
o'rourke: YES I AGREE LET'S DO THING
sperber: UHHHH HOW COME YOU ARE SAYING YOU NEED TO DO THING, WHY DID YOU NOT GO OUT OF YOUR WAY TO SPECIFY THAT OTHER PEOPLE ALSO MIGHT NEED TO DO THING????
like talk about looking for a fight where none exists") and please, if you think it's actually important enough to discuss, don't yell about it because none of the people who cause these decimal representations are doing anything ethically wrong, and are in fact creating a lot of mass good for the people who actually play quizbowl in Missouri. I've grown up and realized these aren't battles worth fighting, so should you.

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scphilli
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Re: Bonus representation (I'm sure this already was brought up)

Post by scphilli » Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:10 am


Jason Loy
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Re: Bonus representation (I'm sure this already was brought up)

Post by Jason Loy » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:59 pm

This thread has seen its better days. It's now locked.

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