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Middle school quizbowl is good (split from Ladue thread)

Discussion of quizbowl topics not related to specific tournaments
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dividebyzero
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Middle school quizbowl is good (split from Ladue thread)

Post by dividebyzero » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:03 pm

Moderator note: split from Ladue Fall Novice/Middle School Tournament thread

[Note: my putting this statement here is in no way promoting Ladue's tournament over the middle school tournament at Tuscumbia or anyone else who is running one. I just didn't get around to writing a post until now]

I just wanted to take a moment to say that I fully support and highly recommend the idea of expanding the middle school quizbowl circuit, which up to now has not been nearly as developed and/or publicized as the highschool level. As Max said above, getting middle schoolers interested in and experience at quizbowl is a huge advantage when they hit highschool. Just as an example (and a biased one, since I don't really know anybody else's situation) virtually my entire varsity team had its beginnings during middle school tournaments, which helped get us interested, motivated, and experienced for high school.
And we didn't turn out too terrible of a team, if I'm allowed to say that.

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Re: Ladue Fall Novice and Middle School Tournament (11/5/11)

Post by L-Town Expatriate » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:10 pm

dividebyzero wrote:[Note: my putting this statement here is in no way promoting Ladue's tournament over the middle school tournament at Tuscumbia or anyone else who is running one. I just didn't get around to writing a post until now]

I just wanted to take a moment to say that I fully support and highly recommend the idea of expanding the middle school quizbowl circuit, which up to now has not been nearly as developed and/or publicized as the highschool level. As Max said above, getting middle schoolers interested in and experience at quizbowl is a huge advantage when they hit highschool. Just as an example (and a biased one, since I don't really know anybody else's situation) virtually my entire varsity team had its beginnings during middle school tournaments, which helped get us interested, motivated, and experienced for high school.
And we didn't turn out too terrible of a team, if I'm allowed to say that.
Valid discussion worth splitting into a separate thread.

The issue some coaches are going to have (namely in school districts where middle schools don't all feed into the same high school) are that they will be aiding their competition. Hopefully the need to promote the circuit as a whole, rather than an individual team, will prevail, or at the very least sponsors at the middle school level becoming quite interested and involved. Were I a coach, though, I'd probably pursue the latter with a few intra-district tournaments to generate interest.

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Re: Ladue Fall Novice and Middle School Tournament (11/5/11)

Post by Charlie Dees » Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:58 am

The issue some coaches are going to have (namely in school districts where middle schools don't all feed into the same high school) are that they will be aiding their competition.
This affects a relatively tiny number of districts in the state.

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Re: Ladue Fall Novice and Middle School Tournament (11/5/11)

Post by L-Town Expatriate » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:05 am

ashkenaziCD wrote:
The issue some coaches are going to have (namely in school districts where middle schools don't all feed into the same high school) are that they will be aiding their competition.
This affects a relatively tiny number of districts in the state.
True, but I think we're familiar with at least two such districts.

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Re: Ladue Fall Novice and Middle School Tournament (11/5/11)

Post by Charlie Dees » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:14 pm

L-Town Expatriate wrote:
ashkenaziCD wrote:
The issue some coaches are going to have (namely in school districts where middle schools don't all feed into the same high school) are that they will be aiding their competition.
This affects a relatively tiny number of districts in the state.
True, but I think we're familiar with at least two such districts.
One such district has both high school coaches fully on board with working to promote better middle school quizbowl. I feel fairly confident if the North Kansas City district were to establish a middle school circuit as well, the only really active coach there would also embrace it enthusiastically. I'm not exactly sure there are that many other districts that do this statewide, and the positive of having more talented players on your team should so far outweight the negative that you're helping your local opposition get better that any coach who actually opposes creating quizbowl for their middle schools is behaving in a way that is worthy of ridicule.

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Re: Ladue Fall Novice and Middle School Tournament (11/5/11)

Post by L-Town Expatriate » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:28 am

ashkenaziCD wrote:
L-Town Expatriate wrote:
ashkenaziCD wrote:
The issue some coaches are going to have (namely in school districts where middle schools don't all feed into the same high school) are that they will be aiding their competition.
This affects a relatively tiny number of districts in the state.
True, but I think we're familiar with at least two such districts.
One such district has both high school coaches fully on board with working to promote better middle school quizbowl. I feel fairly confident if the North Kansas City district were to establish a middle school circuit as well, the only really active coach there would also embrace it enthusiastically. I'm not exactly sure there are that many other districts that do this statewide, and the positive of having more talented players on your team should so far outweight the negative that you're helping your local opposition get better that any coach who actually opposes creating quizbowl for their middle schools is behaving in a way that is worthy of ridicule.
No argument from me there, but were it not for this ridicule-worthy concern, NKCSD would have a decent middle school circuit right now.

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Re: Middle school quizbowl is good (split from Ladue thread)

Post by Charlie Dees » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:45 am

North Kansas City always had a quizbowl team coached by Ryan Stander's mother at Northgate Middle School, which feeds into NKC. That concern never actually got in the way of NKCSD middle school quizbowl (although it failed to yield any results for the high school team).

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Re: Middle school quizbowl is good (split from Ladue thread)

Post by L-Town Expatriate » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:45 am

ashkenaziCD wrote:North Kansas City always had a quizbowl team coached by Ryan Stander's mother at Northgate Middle School, which feeds into NKC. That concern never actually got in the way of NKCSD middle school quizbowl (although it failed to yield any results for the high school team).
Who else had programs? I recall there being at least three other middle schools in the district.

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Re: Middle school quizbowl is good (split from Ladue thread)

Post by Charlie Dees » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:03 am

I have no idea, because I never went to school in the NKC district before 9th grade, never was involved in middle school quizbowl, and mostly only knew people from Northgate, which was the main feeder into NKC. It's entirely possible there were other schools with quizbowl teams, it's entirely possible there weren't, but in either case, Northgate is actually the one most relevant to refuting your point since it's the main one going to NKC.

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Re: Middle school quizbowl is good (split from Ladue thread)

Post by Mewto55555 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:39 am

If you make a middle school team, and half the people go to your school and half go to another school in your district, then both schools are benefiting massively in comparison to the rest of the circuit. If the sole reason for not doing so is to prevent another school in your district from getting a leg up, then you're just a short-sighted idiot whose team deserves to get owned.

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Re: Middle school quizbowl is good (split from Ladue thread)

Post by L-Town Expatriate » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:51 pm

ashkenaziCD wrote:I have no idea, because I never went to school in the NKC district before 9th grade, never was involved in middle school quizbowl, and mostly only knew people from Northgate, which was the main feeder into NKC. It's entirely possible there were other schools with quizbowl teams, it's entirely possible there weren't, but in either case, Northgate is actually the one most relevant to refuting your point since it's the main one going to NKC.
One middle school feeding into one high school does not a decent middle school circuit make. If a decent circuit among NKCSD's five middle schools was in place when I was playing, I should have gotten more of a scare from 'Tonka and Oak Park.

Granted, we're just arguing bygones played on antiquated formats. A 20/20 circuit involving middle schools from NKC, Liberty, and Park Hill would be a monster in the state and send several titles back to the KC area. (Where they belong :P )

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Re: Middle school quizbowl is good (split from Ladue thread)

Post by Charlie Dees » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:14 pm

Oh look, it's a standard fare Kyle Hill argument where you come up with your own parameters for the debate that nobody else is clear on, then argue using confusingly shifting goalposts and nebulous "facts." In the very post of mine you quoted right there I said I have no idea if there are other middle school teams besides Northgate in the NKC district, so there is no actual way to know if you are even right in your assertion. In any case, given that my point is simply that Mr. Allen's lack of interest in establishing middle school quizbowl at his direct feeder schools did nothing to impede his direct feeder school from having a middle school team, thus showing that his apathy certainly did not impede them, I have no idea what your response even is supposed to be. It seems to me that your argument is literally "since not all middle school teams in NKCSD had teams [which may or may not even be true], that means I'm right even though I don't seem to actually be arguing about some known premise related to the discussion." Your posts continue to baffle.

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Re: Middle school quizbowl is good (split from Ladue thread)

Post by Charlie Dees » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:44 pm

Also, a high school coach even volunteering to help a single feeder middle school that directly sends students to their high school is far above and beyond the call of duty for a good coach. Being involved in helping 2 teams is more than enough for a coach to fill their time. Expecting a coach to sink their time into building a circuit among schools where they won't even get any of the students is a completely over the top thing to do.

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Re: Middle school quizbowl is good (split from Ladue thread)

Post by L-Town Expatriate » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:45 pm

Ironically, that cleared things up. Coach Allen had told me years ago his reluctance to support a middle school circuit, and as I recall he cited the reason I brought up, rather than the additional effort. And at the time I thought, like so many here have espoused, that's short-sighted.

I have no problems with a middle school circuit, and I think it's wonderful that high school coaches in the area (I think I know who's being implied, but as I've not spoken to them about it I won't post speculation) are wanting to develop one. It would take a lot of work and effort, but a strong middle school circuit feeding into a thriving high school circuit can only stand to benefit the overall quality of the game. At the least, middle-of-the-road programs get a little more teeth.

For a middle school circuit to develop and sustain itself, it might need to establish a conference separate from the activities leagues (as I recall, Kansas City's suburban conferences do not extend to the middle school level.) It would be wonderful for high school coaches to find interested junior high sponsors and then convene to establish a quiz bowl conference that might require someone from outside the schools to operate it. Naturally, I'm not in an authoritative position to speak of this, but Paul Nelson might be able to shed some light on what it takes to operate a league, as he's just been appointed to run a county-wide league in Ohio.

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