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MSHSAA Format/Distribution Changes 
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Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007
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Post MSHSAA Format/Distribution Changes
So, are the MSHSAA format & distribution changing or not? There were mentions of major expansions to fine arts and such earlier, and Coach Brown told me that his tournament was going to two part bonuses, but nothing I've heard conclusively says anything either way.

So what exactly is going on?


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89143/'>Charbroil</a>, Aug 26 2009, 08:52:21 PM.</div>


Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:52 pm
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Post MSHSAA Format/Distribution Changes
MSHSAA Minutes wrote:
Motion Camp, Werr second to recommend that the Missouri format for bonus questions be modified, to begin in 2009-10, from four-part bonus questions worth five points a piece to two-part bonus questions worth ten points a piece, with no change in the immediate rebounding rules. Motion passed 8-0.

I see no mention of an increase in fine arts here. However, there is this gem:
Quote:
Motion Camp, Dixon second to recommend that the contract with Questions Galore not be extended at this time due to the changes in the Missouri Academic Competition format, and that a Request For Proposals (RFP) be distributed to the Question Companies on our roster for selection of a 2009-10 question provider. motion passed 8-0.

Which was thought to have to do with canceling an already existing contract with Questions Galore, except earlier in the minutes there is
Quote:
Questions Galore was contracted for the 2008-09 school year with a possible contract extension option for up to three more years.

meaning that the MSHSAA was under absolutely no obligation to continue using Questions Galore this season if they did not want to, and that they wouldn't even listen to all 8 coaches who were chosen to represent you coaches and players out there. Amazing just how much the MSHSAA actually cares about the participants of this activity!


Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:08 pm
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Post MSHSAA Format/Distribution Changes
ashkenaziCD wrote:
I see no mention of an increase in fine arts here.
I meant this: http://moquizbowl.com/topic/7645864/1

Quote:
The MSHSAA Advisory Committee Meeting was fairly productive. We made an adjustment in the question distribution so that all of the previous Literature and Language Arts questions will be combined in a single category, Communication Arts, with 10 TU and 4 Bonuses. The 3 TU and 1 Bonus in the former Language Arts category will be placed in the Fine Arts category. (I'm typing this from memory, so I may not have the numbers of items quite right but I know they are close.)


Did this actually happen? I'm somewhat confused, since this (below) did.

Quote:
One other revision that was unanimously approved was the reduction of bonuses from 4-part to 2-part. The total number of tossups and bonuses per game did not change, however. As a result of these changes, the bid submission process for question providers will be re-opened for the 2009-2010 season. Hopefully, these adjustments will make writing questions for the MSHSAA format a little easier in order to attract several quality question providers from which to choose.


And yet, the bid submission process wasn't reopened--this is downright bizarre.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89143/'>Charbroil</a>, Aug 26 2009, 09:18:43 PM.</div>


Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:17 pm
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Post MSHSAA Format/Distribution Changes
Quote:
Motion Camp, Connor second to recommend that the Literature and Language Arts categories be combined into "Communication Arts," and that all sub-categories in the original areas be placed under this one new English-based category, that this new area would include ten toss-up questions and four bonus questions, and that the three toss-up and one bonus that were in the original Language Arts category be added to the Fine Arts/Performing Arts question requirements to begin in 2009-10. Motion passed 8-0.

The committee suggested that the emphasis in this new area be on Literature rather than grammar, spelling and vocabulary, and desired that this be communicated directly to the successful Question Providing company.

I was looking on the wrong page, which is why I missed this (not to mention I originally thought it meant they were making grammar part of the fine arts distribution, which fortunately isn't happening). This seems like a positive development.


Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:25 pm
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Post MSHSAA Format/Distribution Changes
Quote:
Motion Camp, Werr second to recommend that the Missouri format for bonus questions be modified, to begin in 2009-10, from four-part bonus questions worth five points a piece to two-part bonus questions worth ten points a piece, with no change in the immediate rebounding rules. Motion passed 8-0.
This is going to be an interesting change.


Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:23 pm
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Post MSHSAA Format/Distribution Changes
I don't think it will really make any difference, since Questions Galore got the bid any nobody knows what kind of difficulty metric they will use for each part (since they likely won't use one). It doesn't really make the game a whole lot shorter since there are still 50 tossups teams have to wade through.


Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:25 pm
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Post MSHSAA Format/Distribution Changes
The 50 tossups per round, the 22 rounds each year (IIRC), and the requirement that none of those questions can be used anywhere else in America until the following school year will still keep most vendors that people on this board would actually like from actually bidding.

Still, best wishes to whomever gets the job.


Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:35 pm
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Post MSHSAA Format/Distribution Changes
Questions Galore already got it, that's what the whole discussion about MSHSAA ignoring the reccommendation of the Advisors to not extend their contract and instead open up to new bids was about.


Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:38 pm
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Post MSHSAA Format/Distribution Changes
And yes, while you bring it up, these changes will do nothing to actually attract new question providers. If you want to find a format that any decent provider will supply you with, it will need to have 30 point bonuses and be easily convertible from a 20/20 packet, since it would be far more efficient for HSAPQ or NAQT to simply use one of their already produced sets with minimal change than to write a whole bunch of questions from scratch to fill a niche distribution.
Similarly, in the modern world of online fora to keep track of tournament announcements, there is no excuse to demand that the providers only use the set they write once. NAQT offers state-by-state geographic exclusivity, which could easily be used on an IS set sold to MSHSAA since it's an automatic thing whenever you use a set of theirs. On the offchance that the set is used in a bordering state that a team wants to travel to, it could be very simple to just refuse MSHSAA sanctioning for that tournament, since any team attending it would then be subject to not being allowed to play in the state series on the same set. In any case, NAQT usually reserves one set for state championships, so it would be highly improbable that Missouri teams would even be let into the NAQT state championship for Oklahoma, Arkansas, Kentucky, or Illinois (I don't think Iowa, Tennessee, or Kansas have them). Similarly, it would be very easy for HSAPQ to keep track of where tournaments are held and what teams attend and make sure to inform local teams not to attend any out of state events on the state set. There really is no reason to keep this rule anymore because of how far technology has come, allowing us to make sure nobody is cheating much more effectively than we did in 1996.
The last thing for HSAPQ is that you need to eliminate computation tossups, which of course is self explanatory, and while NAQT still writes them, their sets have nowhere near the quantity that MSHSAA dictates, so if you were to reduce or eliminate those tossups, it would probably be easier to attract their bid since it would mean they don't have to worry about writing extra questions.
If the Advisory Committee really wants to see some change happen, it is glaringly obvious that these changes to the contract need be made. Changing a bonus from 5/5/5/5 to 10/10 is basically just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, and will not get you anywhere closer to having credible writers submit bids.


Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:52 pm
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Post MSHSAA Format/Distribution Changes
Hurray for getting out of high school quizbowl at the right time.

Well... "It is always darkest before the dawn". Right? Or does it just get darker?


Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:35 pm
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Post MSHSAA Format/Distribution Changes
AShoaib wrote:
Hurray for getting out of high school quizbowl at the right time.

Well... "It is always darkest before the dawn". Right? Or does it just get darker?
While I'm obviously opposed to the Questions Galore choice, I'm not sure if the overall situation in Missouri is getting worse. MOQBA is hosting good tournaments all over the place, we're sponsoring a team for the HSAPQ All Star tournament, and an increasing number of teams are going to National tournaments. I can't even really pin down a darkest moment--maybe Fall 2008, when Questions Galore was everywhere and it was unknown how many teams would rally to MOQBA.

By the way, Abdullah, are you guys forming a team at SLU? Even if you aren't, you really should come to WUSTL and play in our Gateway Invitational Tournament in November--we're not exactly far away, you know. :P

Edit--You as in you and anyone else you can bring from SLU, like Mohammed Zahid (and aren't there other QB players who're going/who went to SLU?).


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89143/'>Charbroil</a>, Aug 30 2009, 07:22:05 PM.</div>


Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:15 pm
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Post MSHSAA Format/Distribution Changes
I too agree that things are getting better on average, if not within the actual MSHSAA series. This will probably be the first year in the history of Missouri where there will be enough good tournaments offered that a team that doesn't mind doing a little driving would be able to play a large majority of their season on sets that will help them improve and will be well written. This is an infinitely preferable situation to what I had to put up with, driving to places like the middle of Arkansas to play something decent. While Missouri can't match the field of tournaments held in places like Washington DC or Los Angeles, the fact that so many teams here will be exposed to good questions regularly means that it will be infinitely easier for us as a state to start making the fields here great as well. All we need to make that happen are some players who decide they are sick of losing and want to rise to the top and some coaches who will read lots of good packets to their team in practice. This season will be a really easy one for anyone in Missouri who puts in the work to do extremely well, if you want to be that team, you should start reading through the links in my signature and maybe writing some questions on topics that come up a lot. If you do that out of a desire to win, there won't be much stopping you from winning all kinds of local trophies (except for other players who want to do the same work as you, which means you'll just need to keep working to stay competitive.) So please, high schoolers, take this as a challenge, you have the tools to become the best team ever to play in Missouri if you just ignore the MSHSAA series and focus on everything else, so do it.


Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:33 pm
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Post MSHSAA Format/Distribution Changes
The MSHSAA website still doesn't have minutes from the advisory committee meeting but they do have the 2009-2010 rulebook up.

Summary:
- Language arts and literature have been combined into "Communication Arts", keeping Literature's 10/4 distribution
- Fine arts takes over Language Arts' questions, receiving a 6/2 distribution.
- Bonuses are now 2 part worth 10 points each
- Captains can now defer on bonuses

Changes underlined in the manual:

Quote:
C.1.b: BONUS QUESTIONS are two parts and are awarded to the team that answers a toss-up correctly during the second and fourth quarters. The entire team confers, but the answer or answers must come from the team captain unless he/she defers. The captain may defer to another team member to give the answer, verbally indicating (example) “I defer to John.” A deferred answer must be started/completed under the normal timing rules - no extra time is allowed. If the moderator asks for clarification of the answer given, it would be acceptable for team members to give clarification to the captain who would restate the answer to the moderator. The time would not be kept during this clarification process.
1) Bonus questions are worth twenty (20) points and will consist of two (2) questions worth ten (10) points each.


Quote:
C.3.d Communication Arts: world literature (all genres), American literature (all genres), British literature (all genres), mythology, journalism, grammar/usage, spelling, vocabulary, speech

C.3.g. Miscellaneous: sports, business education, agriculture, home economics, driver's education, health/physical fitness, industrial trades/industrial arts, entertainment, foreign language

C.4.a. COMMUNICATION ARTS - ten (10) toss-up and four (4) bonus;
FINE ARTS/PERFORMING ARTS - Six (6) toss-up and two (2) bonus;


C.4.b 1st/3rd quarters tossup distribution: 6 communication arts (previously "literature"), 4 fine arts/performing arts (to replace language arts that was moved to communication arts)

Also some slight clarifying wording changes to G.2 and G.3 about protesting though nothing changing gameplay.


Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:44 pm
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Post MSHSAA Format/Distribution Changes
ashkenaziCD wrote:
This season will be a really easy one for anyone in Missouri who puts in the work to do extremely well, if you want to be that team, you should start reading through the links in my signature and maybe writing some questions on topics that come up a lot. If you do that out of a desire to win, there won't be much stopping you from winning all kinds of local trophies (except for other players who want to do the same work as you, which means you'll just need to keep working to stay competitive.) So please, high schoolers, take this as a challenge, you have the tools to become the best team ever to play in Missouri if you just ignore the MSHSAA series and focus on everything else, so do it.
A truer word never was spoken (posted).


Also, with regards to the format/distribution changes, I find them to be wholly inconsequential when the much larger problem of QG remains. The distribution change is kinda nice. The two part bonuses are a bit poorly conceived, in my opinion. But those small changes are still overshadowed by specters of bad quizbowl and questions galore.


Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:05 pm
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