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2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC 
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
Hello everyone,
Now is time to run a post-season poll. What I ask is that people send in a ballot with their list of the top 10 teams in the state regardless of class, numbered from 1 to 10. Again, I will also attempt to run an individual ballot of the teams from the top 5 of each class. However, given the dismal success rate of that venture in the past, if I get too few individual class ballots to really say anything about it is legit, I will discontinue attempting to do that in the future, so this is the last shot everybody.
I will not accept any tied teams, nor will I break any ties, and if it appears your ballot is not actually a legitimate good faith attempt to rank the top teams, I will email you asking for reasoning and possibly throw it out, although I have never had to do that in previous ballots so hopefully that will not be a problem. One thing I would like to note - in the past I have been given ballots where the author says they are only ranking teams they've seen, and not teams they haven't seen. Please everyone, this is not the point of balloting the top 10 teams in the state. I strongly ask everyone to make the best educated guesses as possible - I don't think anyone has seen all of the top teams in the state, so presumably enough ballots from different people will help correct any bias you may have by not seeing all of the teams. If you send me a ballot that is actively excluding some teams not on the basis of their predicted skill but rather because you haven't seen them play, and you make that clear to me, I will send it back to you to redo.
I look forward to recieving your ballots. Everyone, you absolutely must send your ballot to charlie16@gmail.com. I will not accept ballots posted in this thread, nor will I accept private messages on this board or facebook. It is much simpler for me to gather the information from a simple email search in one place, so please send it there. Please send your ballots no later than Sunday June 21 at midnight.
Happy balloting.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89049/'>ashkenaziCD</a>, Jun 14 2009, 02:55:22 AM.</div>


Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:08 am
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
So that you can browse statistics and see head to head results of different teams on good questions and whatnot, here are a bunch of results from this year.
2008 Missouri Fall Academic Tournament @ Mizzou. Top 4, North Kansas City, Hickman, Rock Bridge, Liberty. Used NAQT's IS set 80A. Statistics - http://www.taftqb.com/t/2008mfat
2008 Rolla Fall Tournament @ Missouri S&T. Top 4, Savannah, Liberty, Richland, Hallsville. Used NAQT's IS set 78A. Statistics - http://web.mst.edu/~cbowl/hosting/0809/mstfall08_prelims_standings.html
2009 North Kansas City Tournament. Top 4, Truman, Lee's Summit North, Savannah, Liberty. Used NAQT's IS set 82A. Partial statistics - http://naqt.com/stats/tournament-teams.jsp?tournament_id=2845
Tiger Bowl 1 @ Mizzou. Top 4, Parkway Central, Helias, St. Louis University, Fulton. Used HSAPQ's NSC format set #1. Statistics - http://www.missouriquizbowl.com/reports/090124_tigerbowl/report_standings.htm
2009 WUHSAC @ Washington University-St. Louis. Top 4, Rockford Auburn (IL), Carbondale (IL), Parkway Central, Eureka. Used house written question. Morning statistics - http://sugroups.wustl.edu/~collbowl/wuhsac11/WUHSAC%2011_standings.html
2009 Rolla Spring Tournament @ Missouri S&T. Top 4 Large School, Francis Howell Central, North Kansas City, Liberty, Eureka. Top 4 Small School, Fordland, Salem A, Hancock A, Salem B. Used NAQT's IS set 77, with modifications. Large school statistics - http://web.mst.edu/~cbowl/hosting/0809/spring09largefull_standings.html. Small school statistics - http://web.mst.edu/~cbowl/hosting/0809/spring09smallfull_standings.html
2009 Truman Bowl @ Truman State. Top 4, Kirksville A, Kirksville B, Hannibal A, Pacific A. Used HSAPQ's 4 Quarter set. Statistics for all 5 games, because someone at Truman State thought running a 5 game tournament on a not extremely long game format was actually a good idea - http://results.scobo.net/SQBS.aspx?org=Trumanstate&id=5&page=standings
2009 NAQT State @ Missouri S&T. Top 4, North Kansas City, Savannah, Francis Howell Central & Parkway Central. Used NAQT's IS set 83. Statistics - http://web.mst.edu/~cbowl/hosting/0809/naqtmo09_standings.html
2009 PACE National Scholastics Championship @ George Mason University. Top 4, Wilmington Charter A (DE), State College A (PA), Georgetown Day A (Washington, DC), Maggie Walker Governor's A (VA). Missouri highlights - oh wait, the MSHSAA explicitly banned lots of Missouri teams from being able to attend this wonderful tournament and get more exposure to national level quizbowl and perhaps prove themselves as good teams. Used independently contracted set. Statistics - http://www.taftqb.com/t/pacensc09/
2009 NAQT National Championship in Chicago. Top 4, Wilmington Charter A (DE), Dorman A (SC), State College A (PA), Detroit Catholic Central (MI). Missouri highlights - Francis Howell Central went 7-3 and ended tied for 27th. Everyone else missed the playoffs, with all but Liberty and Glasgow going 5-5. Used NAQT written HSNCT set. Statistics - http://naqt.com/stats/tournament-teams.jsp?tournament_id=2750
Hopefully these should help you get ideas for your rankings.


Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:54 am
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
WUHSAC Playoff Stats: http://www.hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6007&start=0&hilit=WUHSAC


Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:46 am
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
I just want to let you all know that I only have 2 ballots submitted. If people don't want me to stop bothering to do this for all of you in the future, then please pull a ballot together and give me enough submissions to work with and create a fairer ranking. If people fall prey to the bystander effect and then decide after the fact to post a bunch of ballots in this thread then I definitely won't be pleased, it only takes you 5 minutes to pull one of these together and another minute and a half to send it off to me. Please do that before tomorrow, and send it to charlie16@gmail.com. Thank you.


Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:46 am
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
Yeah, I'll do this.


Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:32 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
I am now only up to 4 ballots, not counting my own. I guess I will postpone the deadline until Tuesday, and if I don't see some more ballots then I'll just go ahead with it. Please don't make me have to do that, this is nuts, we should be able to get a lot more votes.


Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:31 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
This is on its way, pending some ballot clarification from one person who ranked a team twice.


Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:35 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
Ballots have been counted, and the winner of this year's season-ending poll is North Kansas City. Many congratulations. And without further ado, here are the final rankings:

1. North Kansas City (1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2)
2. Francis Howell Central (1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2)
3. Savannah (3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8)
4. Parkway Central (3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 8)
5. Ladue Horton Watkins (3, 5, 5, 5, 6, 6)
6. Liberty (3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10)
7. Fort Zumwalt West (6, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
8. Clayton (6, 7, 7, 7)
9. Truman (5, 8, 8, 9, 9, 10)
10. Hickman (6, 9, 9)

Honorable mention: Eureka, Tarkio

I should note that Eureka and Hickman tied, so I had to cast a tiebreaker vote in favor of Hickman. I will be posting the individual ballots in another post.


Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:24 am
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
Quote:
Charles Hang Poll
1/ NKC
2/ FHC
3/ Savannah
4/ Liberty
5/ Ladue
6/ FZW
7/ Clayton
8/ PCH
9/ Hickman
10/ Truman


Quote:
Brandon Roney Poll
1. NKC
2. FHC
3. Savannah
4. Parkway Central
5. Liberty
6. Ladue
7. Eureka
8. Truman
9. Hickman
10.FZW


Quote:
Matt Chadbourne Poll
1) Francis Howell Central
2) North Kansas City
3) Parkway Central
4) Savannah
5) Ladue
6) Clayton
7) Fort Zumwalt West
8) Liberty
9) Truman
10) Eureka


Quote:
Will Hack Poll
1. NKC
2. FHC
3. Liberty
4. PCH
5. Savannah
6. Ladue
7. Eureka
8. Truman
9. Fort Zumwalt West
10. Tarkio


Quote:
Dakota Ioanis Poll
1.NKC
2.FHC
3.Ladue
4.Parkway Central
5.Truman
6.FZW
7.Clayton
8.Savannah
9.Liberty
10.Tarkio


Quote:
Charles Dees ballot
1. Francis Howell Central
2. North Kansas City
3. Savannah
4. Parkway Central
5. Ladue
6. Hickman
7. Clayton
8. Fort Zumwalt West
9. Truman
10. Tarkio


I also will post Matt Chadbourne's ballot that ranked the top 5 in each class. His was the only one I got, because despite all the clamoring I've heard in the past for class polls, somehow none of the interested parties actually send any, so I will be discontinuing requesting them in the future.

Quote:
Class 4:
1) Francis Howell Central
2) North Kansas City
3) Parkway Central
4) Savannah
5) Ladue

Class 3:
1) Hallsville
2) Priory
3) Notre Dame
4) Cassville
5) Holden

Class 2:
1) Richland
2) St. Paul Lutheran
3) Fordland
4) Belle
5) Smithton

Class 1:
1) Tarkio
2) Glasgow
3) Leeton
4) Stanberry
5) Thomas Jefferson


I want to thank everyone for sending in their ballots, and I am intrigued at how much of a consensus we seem to have reached in our pollers, maybe not as to the actual rankings, but when at least as to what teams deserve to be in the top 10, considering there were only 12 mentioned across 6 ballots. Also, I'd like to note that not one MSHSAA champion placed higher than 3rd on anyone's ballot. Interesting.


Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:32 am
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
Wow, no respect for Liberty and (moreso) Eureka. And once again, Charles ranks PCH lower than anyone else. Wish we had a chance to give you one more beat-down, Mr. Hang. : p


Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:11 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
Not to rag on Liberty too much, but they had some very notable losses to people like FZW, and the fact that they placed 126th/got 1 power/etc. at HSNCT, behind almost everyone else that went from Missouri, can't help their rankings. I just don't quite buy that they were as good this year as some people think. As my ballot suggests, I think FHC got the short end of the stick in this more because it was very clear by the time HSNCT rolled around that Charles H. had done a ton of work to get his team to be a lot better than they were at NAQT state. If you're basing this off of total cumulative seasons, then NKC has more interesting wins, but I think if you are just judging it by who would win the most games in a series against each other at the end of the year, I definitely think it was FHC.


Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:40 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
Lol...I should have voted for ourselves as #1--we would have tied for first place. Rats. :D

And Will, I guess I did vote you guys a little low, though notably, I don't recall your playing most of the other teams on the list, so I'm afraid that I kind of overlooked you guys.


Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:23 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
I think the FZW loss was somewhat of a fluke due to Julia's rampage, but you are right in saying we had notable losses. We never played Ladue or PCH so I can't really comment on whether or not we should be in front of them. I think Hickman got the huge short (oxymoron?) end of the stick here though. They trashed us at Mizzou fall and they should be in the top 4 or 5.


Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:27 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
I found myself desperately wishing we had played Liberty at some point, but I guess I'm not entirely qualified to comment. The 2 teams I really took issue with Charles placing above us were Clayton and FZW. While FZW is a fine team, we trashed them a couple times and, if we'd played them on good questions at the end of the year, I would have felt very confident that we'd have come out on top. When it comes to Clayton, for the vast majority of the year, they were not in the same league as these other teams. While I suspect your vote was based on the influence of Ikshu, I don't think we should be ranked lower then them based on his projected strength. I suppose we'll see in the upcoming year whether he can make Clayton a top-tier program.

This is a bit premature, but for next year, I think the top teams will include PCH, Clayton, NKC, and Savannah.


Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:12 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
Yeah, you probably have a point. Sorry...though I'd like to note that if I'd voted you guys higher, you would have beaten our Savannah, which I don't find entirely convincing.


Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:19 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
It seems like there's some confusion as to what exactly the end-of-season poll is. The only criteria I use is "what would the final standings look like if, at the end of the season, these schools' full A teams faced off on good questions." I don't take tournaments with key players missing, or really any early-season losses, into account.


Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:28 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
WillHack wrote:
I found myself desperately wishing we had played Liberty at some point, but I guess I'm not entirely qualified to comment. The 2 teams I really took issue with Charles placing above us were Clayton and FZW. While FZW is a fine team, we trashed them a couple times and, if we'd played them on good questions at the end of the year, I would have felt very confident that we'd have come out on top. When it comes to Clayton, for the vast majority of the year, they were not in the same league as these other teams. While I suspect your vote was based on the influence of Ikshu, I don't think we should be ranked lower then them based on his projected strength. I suppose we'll see in the upcoming year whether he can make Clayton a top-tier program.

This is a bit premature, but for next year, I think the top teams will include PCH, Clayton, NKC, and Savannah.
I really had trouble placing Parkaway West, FZW, Clayton, and Truman. FZW did well this year but never played them (along with Parkway West) and I felt that their 4th place finish at MSHSAA state was perhaps more luck then skill (insert comment about how when playing on QG it's all luck who wins here).

We beat Clayton by 40 at MSHSAA state even though they when on to place 3rd and beat NKC. I felt that they didn't play enough tournaments to be placed higher (same thing for Ladue otherwise they would have easily have been my 1st place team) If you all look at my ballot I did put all the teams that went to nationals on my ballot. I think if Clayton and/or Ladue went to nationals I would have placed them higher. I have a feeling Ladue really could have done well there based on how they beat FHC in sectionals and how well FHC did at nationals.

I'm not surprised at all where Truman was placed in the final rankings. I think I may have over ranked us at 5th overall, but nevertheless we had a great season this year. It's interesting to look back at the Truman program from when Michael, Andy, and I entered the program 4 years ago (3 years for me). We were the laughing stock not only of the staff of the school (no one wanted to coach the team and we had 4 different JV coaches in 4 years up to this past one and Mr. Tarvin had no support from the school administration [still doesn't get support] ) but of other teams from other schools. I remember in 2006 the varsity team won conference for the first time simply because no other school showed up. The school did make a big deal about this and ended up buying a banner in the gym just for scholar bowl. There wasn't a need to have one before then because the program was just that bad. Since all of us joined the team we have added 2 more conference championships to that banner plus a district championship and just missed a final four banner for state by like 90 points or so (Clayton just had to beat NKC at state buy 90 point. If they lost we would have replaced Clayton for one of the final four teams). I'm going to get off my soapbox now :-).


Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:27 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
1. Do you mean Parkway Central, instead of West? West was a brand new team this year that thankfully has traveled to some good tournaments, but that Parkway Central was consistently outperforming them at, probably partially because everyone on their team is new.
2. Francis Howell Central never went to Sectionals, and even if they had, they would have played Rock Bridge, not Ladue. I have no idea where you made up that story about Ladue beating them there.
3. Truman won conference in 2006 by beating NKC and some other school, possibly Winnetonka. I know that for a fact because we were hosting that tournament and I was playing, so again, not true.
4. Your criteria seems somewhat inconsistent - at first you say that FZW's state placement was a fluke and generally sound like you are saying state was not a meaningful ranking, but then you say if Ladue had happened to go to more tournaments, their winning state would have been enough for you to rank them first. You can't have it both ways (and hint: winning MSHSAA state is not a good criterion for ranking teams, so even if you won it, having poor results on real sets compared to other good teams would be enough in any normal ranking to still keep a team's ranking low).


Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:45 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
trumanboy wrote:
We beat Clayton by 40 at MSHSAA state even though they when on to place 3rd and beat NKC. I felt that they didn't play enough tournaments to be placed higher (same thing for Ladue otherwise they would have easily have been my 1st place team) If you all look at my ballot I did put all the teams that went to nationals on my ballot. I think if Clayton and/or Ladue went to nationals I would have placed them higher. I have a feeling Ladue really could have done well there based on how they beat FHC in sectionals and how well FHC did at nationals.
Anything played on QG should not be valued when ranking teams.


Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:45 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
WillHack wrote:
This is a bit premature, but for next year, I think the top teams will include PCH, Clayton, NKC, and Savannah.
I don't know much about PCH, but Clayton and NKC should be very good. Savannah loses Zach and he was pretty much a one man team this year so I am not sure whether or not they will be as competitive next year. Liberty loses all of its starters, so it will be interesting to see what our younger people can do.


Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:48 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
I'm growing a new and improved Adam Sperber to feenis your todds. In general, I have a strong feeling next year will not be as strong at the top as this year was. What this means is that as a state, we are in a very good position for anyone who is young and wants to study the right way to rise quickly and fill the vacuum. From everything I've heard about how Clayton is preparing on pyramidal questions, I think it will be hard to bet against them as the most likely to make this happen, especially since all but Josh are returning. However, as a suggestion, if you spend this summer reading at least one ACF Fall packet a day, even if it seems hard right now, by December you will be playing far beyond anything you ever expected, and if you can talk some of your teammates into doing the exact same thing, you will quickly be rising to the top at good tournaments. Everyone should do this, it will work some real wonders.


Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:09 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
WillHack wrote:
This is a bit premature, but for next year, I think the top teams will include PCH, Clayton, NKC, and Savannah.
Who are you guys returning next year?

Also, Charlie, will Adam Sperber be a senior next year? For some reason I thought he was graduating this year.


Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:49 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
Adam was a junior this year.


Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:13 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
ashkenaziCD wrote:
1. Do you mean Parkway Central, instead of West? West was a brand new team this year that thankfully has traveled to some good tournaments, but that Parkway Central was consistently outperforming them at, probably partially because everyone on their team is new.
2. Francis Howell Central never went to Sectionals, and even if they had, they would have played Rock Bridge, not Ladue. I have no idea where you made up that story about Ladue beating them there.
3. Truman won conference in 2006 by beating NKC and some other school, possibly Winnetonka. I know that for a fact because we were hosting that tournament and I was playing, so again, not true.
4. Your criteria seems somewhat inconsistent - at first you say that FZW's state placement was a fluke and generally sound like you are saying state was not a meaningful ranking, but then you say if Ladue had happened to go to more tournaments, their winning state would have been enough for you to rank them first. You can't have it both ways (and hint: winning MSHSAA state is not a good criterion for ranking teams, so even if you won it, having poor results on real sets compared to other good teams would be enough in any normal ranking to still keep a team's ranking low).
1. Yes knew what I ment. Parkway West is a school I know through marching band. Just got the schools mixed up but you know what I ment.

2. Go to #4

3. This was not the story I was told. In 2006 I was a freshman and not on the team (varsity or jv) and I was told my some members of the varsity team the next year how they went to Ray-Pec for conference and no one showed up. Maybe they were not telling the truth or something I'm not sure but that's the story I remember. Either way we won conference in 2006.

4. I don't care. I sent you my ballot and by the looks of the other ballots I was par for the corse as to what teams made the top 10. Who cares if I got things mixed up. If you have a problem with it oh well.


Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:06 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
If you have premises that are false but a conclusion that is true, it still means your argument is flawed.


Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:28 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
It's not that big a deal. I suspect Dakota confused us and FHC; PCH lost to Ladue in Sectionals.

KC isn't my strong area for predictions, but from what I know of the programs, all 3 major powers should be strong, though not as strong as last year.

Look for Chris Zhang to be one of the state's top players next year. He was our best performer at Nationals, and has improved constantly from freshman year. When he is one of the Captains next year, I suspect that he will take on more responsibility and really carry PCH.


Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:47 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
I mean, Savannah is not returning anyone that scored well this season (especially considering the fact that Zach was not really a strong enough player to mask a whole lot of teammate's strengths), and Liberty isn't really either, so I'm guessing that again NKC will be the most dominant team from that circuit by a lot. I think next season we can look for a more interesting balance of power than in the past where the best and most active teams were all from Kansas City.


Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:55 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
ashkenaziCD wrote:
If you have premises that are false but a conclusion that is true, it still means your argument is flawed.
Well...technically it's still a valid argument, but it's not sound. (Invalid arguments go from true premises to a false conclusion.) Just an FYI from someone who's studying logic.

And, in real life, soundness is what people actually mean when they say "your argument is valid".

</being picky about terminology>


Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:47 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
You just quoted me saying "flawed," not "valid" for a reason, Alex.


Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:09 am
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
trumanboy wrote:
4. I don't care. I sent you my ballot and by the looks of the other ballots I was par for the corse as to what teams made the top 10. Who cares if I got things mixed up. If you have a problem with it oh well.
I don't think Charlie has some personal problem with you, Dakota--he was merely criticizing your methodology in gathering info for your ballot. There's no reason to take that tone with him, given that when we submitted ballots, we implicitly opened ourselves up to that kind of criticism.


Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:00 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
Well, and I didn't even have any criticism since your ballot wasn't particularly unusable until you gave your reasons for your particular rankings.


Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:04 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
Spell check!


Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:48 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
Image


Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:52 pm
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Post 2009 End of Season Team Poll: Congratulations NKC
His hair is so wonderful.


Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:53 pm
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