Team Missouri A finishes sixth in all-star tournament!
Congratulations to Team Missouri A for earning sixth place out of twenty-nine teams in the 2018 National All-Star Academic Tournament! Team Missouri B finished in nineteenth place.
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:29 am



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
MSHSAA Suggestion Thread 
Author Message

Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007
Posts: 501
Post MSHSAA Suggestion Thread
Note from moderators: recent MSHSAA suggestion-related posts have been moved to this thread to keep them together. --Jeffrey

FZW Coach wrote:
Final note: if you have any specific changes you would like to see in anything, let me know before our June meeting. I always try to represent the general consensus of thoughts expressed on the message board when we meet.

Are you actually going to take what we have to suggest seriously? From what I understand, in the past you have not really brought our opinions to the board. You just said that people on message boards don't even reflect the general audience, so why should we expect you to listen? I think a better way of doing this would be letting some of us attend the meeting and make sure our views are represented accurately and without a negative bias. If there is no way to let us attend and speak for ourselves, maybe we could write our opinions down and have them read at the meeting.

MODERATOR EDIT: Added cross-thread quote for context


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/88961/'>U. Lou Sthagaim</a>, Mar 30 2009, 08:32:03 AM.</div>


Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:52 pm
Profile

Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008
Posts: 422
Post MSHSAA Suggestion Thread
I think one of the concerns that Spencer is trying to voice, Mr. Gibbs, is that we want the people in charge of Missouri quizbowl to know that many-to-most of the top players in Missouri, and their associated teams, have issues with the current play going on here. I think frequently we feel that you, as one of the people with the most influence on this board, should be the one sharing our opinions. I don't expect you to voice those opinions as your own, but I would like to think that you understand our issues and will represent them (as our opinions) the way we hold them. Things such as:

1. The current 50 question format is undesirable.
2. Math calculation questions are undesirable.
3. Pyramidal questions are desirable.
4. Questions Galore, as a State question provider, is nearly as bad (or, in some opinions, even worse) than nothing.

The feeling is that there are too many people who don't even know what we're upset about, or that we're upset at all.


Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:21 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004
Posts: 6289
Location: In between the bright lights and the far unlit unknown (aka Johnson County, KS)
Post MSHSAA Suggestion Thread
U. Lou Sthagaim wrote:
I understand there are a lot of teams that wouldn't exist if it weren't for MSHSAA's involvement, and several teams support the Missouri format for various reasons. That's fine, but don't punish teams that want to do better on a national scale by imposing the 250 mile restriction, 14 tournament restriction, October-April season, requiring sanctioning forms, etc. If MSHSAA gets rid of rules like this that restrict teams from attending whatever tournaments they want (which stifle LEARNING by essentially restricting their quizbowl experience to a single format), quizbowl in Missouri would be so much better. Then maybe you wouldn't see such animosity toward MSHSAA from everyone.
Coach Gibbs,

To elaborate further on this quoted post, while a good deal of schools are fine with the way MSHSAA runs (whether it be because they enjoy it, lack of knowledge of other formats, or anything else), as you've obviously seen on this message board, there are some teams that aren't happy with it, and feel that the way MSHSAA does quizbowl puts Missouri significantly behind the rest of the nation in quizbowl quality. While there have been some sporadic suggestions to MSHSAA, it seems that when any of these suggestions get brought to the table, they are voted down because most schools are indifferent or want things to be run the way they always have been.

While we could work on improving the state of quizbowl in Missouri by making suggestions to MSHSAA, realize that MSHSAA is an organization primarily in charge of running athletic competitions and not one familiar enough with the modern game of quizbowl. I would imagine the general consensus among dissenting parties is that it would be simpler to just let people who are intimately familiar with how so-called "good quizbowl" (hereinafter referred to as "non-MSHSAA quizbowl") works be in charge of running a quizbowl circuit based on those principles, rather than try to educate MSHSAA on how to incorporate all of these sometimes significant changes into the game it currently runs.

So, my suggestion to MSHSAA is to repeal any restrictions that hinder teams from participating in "non-MSHSAA quizbowl" tournaments, including:
• the 14 tournament restriction. Such a restriction makes some sense for athletics (reducing risk of injury and whatnot) but this makes no sense at all for quizbowl.
• the 250 mile restriction. While the vast majority of teams probably aren't going to be traveling outside of 250 miles anyway (especially considering the general financial situation right now), removing this would allow able teams to travel to distant tournaments over spring break, winter break, etc.
• the "second Friday in October" to "the date of Districts" season. Restricting when students can play quizbowl is illogical.
• any policies that might be in place that restrict teams' participation in national tournaments.
• any other policies that restrict students from participating fully in this academic endeavor.

If for whatever reason MSHSAA feels any of these policies are necessary, I would like to see the reasoning for such policies directly from MSHSAA; not your interpretation or otherwise indirect explanation for it. If these restrictions are in place to "level the playing field" or otherwise make sure teams aren't able to gain a supposed "unfair advantage", you should realize that these restrictions are essentially limiting students' opportunities to learn, and isn't that the opposite of what education is supposed to do?

I'd also like to make sure that you have read Charlie's post here that basically explains how the vast majority of states do NOT have a MSHSAA-like organization overseeing quizbowl, so this restriction-free approach to quizbowl is how this activity is handled throughout the rest of the country. In essence, what I'd really like to see (at a minimum) is MSHSAA's involvement in quizbowl reduced to simply running the district and state series rather than dictating how teams can and cannot participate in quizbowl as a whole.

To summarize, because there are several people who are already intimately familiar with "non-MSHSAA quizbowl", it makes sense to keep those people in charge of running these "non-MSHSAA quizbowl" tournaments. By having MSHSAA remove these unnecessary restrictions, teams that are displeased with the way MSHSAA runs quizbowl can participate more freely in a quizbowl circuit more aligned with national standards and run by people who know what they are doing without fear of any kind of consequences imposed by MSHSAA, while allowing teams who are currently pleased with the way MSHSAA handles quizbowl to continue playing on the "traditional Missouri format", leaving MSHSAA with running a format it already has plenty of experience running and plenty of teams still interested in playing on that format.

Sincerely,
Jeffrey Hill
Missouri S&T 2009

EDIT: I should clarify that I am NOT endorsing two separate circuits; I'm merely asking for restrictions to be lifted so that the general state of quizbowl in Missouri can more freely evolve.
EDIT 2: Linked to Charlie's earlier post which is no longer "above" because post was moved to this thread.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/88961/'>U. Lou Sthagaim</a>, Apr 2 2009, 03:28:53 PM.</div>


Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:44 pm
Profile WWW
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004
Posts: 6289
Location: In between the bright lights and the far unlit unknown (aka Johnson County, KS)
Post MSHSAA Suggestion Thread
After reading through that post a couple more times, it seems that there are a couple of things that might be confusing, so I will try to summarize in list form the rationale behind this suggestion.

I believe the restrictions currently in place are the biggest problem with Missouri quizbowl. Basically, to me it seems that these restrictions put a great deal of teams in the mindset that "MSHSAA quizbowl is the only kind of quizbowl there is" and thus is the reason why there is not a broad demand for change, because those teams aren't aware of the flaws in the current format.

By removing these restrictions, quizbowl in Missouri would benefit rather quickly, because:
• Teams that already know about "non-MSHSAA quizbowl", prefer it, and want to do better on a national level would have the ability to go to more tournaments in formats conducive for that, without fear of consequences from MSHSAA.
• Teams that are fine with the Missouri format would still be able to focus their schedules on those types of events, and the State series would remain in the traditional Missouri format in the immediate future.
• Teams that are unfamiliar with other formats would still have the familiar Missouri format but would also have a wider selection of alternative formats to explore.
• Additionally, because the 14 tournament limit would no longer be in place, this would open up schedules so that teams that would have exclusively focused on Missouri-style events would be able to attend more tournaments in different formats because they would no longer be bound by an arbitrary tournament limit. As more and more teams explore these other formats, a better-informed consensus on the definition of "Missouri quizbowl" would result, and the MSHSAA-sponsored tournament could be modified to reflect that consensus.
• In the immediate future, there would be no substantial changes in the format for Districts/State, because the demand for a change may not be as widespread as the posts on this board seem to indicate. Changes to the format of Districts/State would only be made if enough demand for them exists. Thus, MSHSAA would not be pressured to implement significant changes that are not demanded by a sufficient number of teams.
• It would bring Missouri closer to national standards by making quizbowl a largely unregulated activity, as it is in most other states.

While I support any improvements to the District/State format, as long as these restrictions are in place, Missouri quizbowl will remain largely defined by a single format and as a result, this activity will not be as beneficial to students as it could be.


Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:26 am
Profile WWW

Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 1039
Post MSHSAA Suggestion Thread
Just to append one last suggestion to Jeffrey's fairly exhaustive list, I'd also recommend that MSHSAA eliminate its Sectional system after this year because relative to the benefits it brings, it seems to cost too much in terms of resources and complications. Not only have districts been shrunk to an absurdly small size (because about half of the schools in any district might not attend), but there are the issues of additional cost for teams traveling Sectionals, the complications resulting from teams having to miss school for Sectionals, and finally the interference with people's participation in other activities (including MSHSAA activities--something that MSHSAA should sympathize with).

Rather, it would seem that the simplest solution would be advancing two teams from each District to either play in the 4 team Sectional already advocated here before, or to simply play at State. In the latter, you could either expand preliminaries to 4 randomly seeded games (like at the Hancock & DeSmet tournaments), provide a loser's bracket for the 5th-8th teams (to keep it so that the top half of the teams advance somewhere), or simply not change things at all (3 random preliminary matches, then 2 playoff rounds).

I know that suggestions along these lines have been made before, but I think it is the general consensus of people on this board that it would be nice if they're remade.


Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:40 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004
Posts: 4386
Location: Viburnum, Missouri
Post MSHSAA Suggestion Thread
Jeff has covered pretty much everything I would have said, so I'll just add to his list a bit.

One of the things I do not believe MSHSAA understands is that the way they supervise quizbowl is not the way it is run in other places; in fact, it's pretty much the opposite of how it's run everywhere else. The restrictions they place on activities make plenty of sense for sports, for various reasons - the risk of serious injuries, the desire to keep athletes (many of whom may be struggling academically) in class as much as possible, the desire to keep athletics from becoming too competitive, etc. I think these are worthwhile reasons, and some of them are even laudable. However, none of them make any sense for quizbowl whatsoever. There is no risk of injury in quizbowl. The students who play quizbowl are the ones who succeed academically, so additional missed class time will not affect them nearly as much. The increased competitiveness seen in high school quizbowl nationwide only means that students who participate are learning more, which is obviously a good thing. The hard truth that is the end result of all of these factors is that restrictions placed on quizbowl actually inhibit the ability of participants to learn new information through their participation, and I've seen absolutely no evidence that the MSHSAA brass comprehends this fact. Therefore, I think MSHSAA needs to do one of two things: demonstrate clearly how and why their restrictions benefit participants, or remove these restrictions altogether. Quizbowl has flourished nationwide in a freer environment, so there's no reason such an environment wouldn't work here.

My suggestion to Coach Gibbs is that MSHSAA should include someone with extensive experience in academic competition among its membership. From what I understand, the current MSHSAA academic competition liaison is Stacy Schroeder, who has extensive experience in volleyball, but no prior experience in academic competition. It stands to reason, therefore, that Ms. Schroeder, not being a quizbowl person herself, does not quite understand how quizbowl has been so successful nationwide, and might not see the motivation to push for some of the changes the quizbowl community has requested. By hiring someone to oversee academic competition with more experience, they have nothing to lose and everything to gain. If their way is best, they will win out, and MSHSAA academic competition will continue to be run in the way it is now. If their way is not best, an experienced academic competition liaison is in a better position to push for changes than is Ms. Schroeder, who does a fine job in her volleyball-overseeing duties, but doesn't have a similar background in quizbowl.

Therefore, I can sum up my suggestion briefly as follows: MSHSAA should put an experienced quizbowl person in charge of their academic competition.


Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:50 am
Profile WWW

Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 1039
Post MSHSAA Suggestion Thread
DeckardCain wrote:
The students who play quizbowl are the ones who succeed academically, so additional missed class time will not affect them nearly as much. The increased competitiveness seen in high school quizbowl nationwide only means that students who participate are learning more, which is obviously a good thing.
[quote = "DeckardCain"] There is no risk of injury in quizbowl. [/quote]

I don't know...I've always wondered about WUHSAC's policy about player incapacitation and how while a player can be substituted out for incapacitation, the player can't have incapacitated him/herself. Has that actually happened before? :D (By the way, this is not a serious concern)

DeckardCain wrote:
The students who play quizbowl are the ones who succeed academically, so additional missed class time will not affect them nearly as much.


It's worth noting that since tournaments generally fall on Saturdays (and at most require Friday afternoons to attend them), the need to preserve class time by restricting tournament attendance is really a nonissue.

DeckardCain wrote:
The increased competitiveness seen in high school quizbowl nationwide only means that students who participate are learning more, which is obviously a good thing.


I wanted to emphasize this, since I think this point could have been a second major point in addition to the fact that Quiz Bowl needs someone running it who actually knows about Quiz Bowl.
Freer Quiz Bowl = More people learning. More people learning = point of education.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89143/'>Charbroil</a>, Mar 30 2009, 11:23:59 AM.</div>


Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:08 am
Profile

Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006
Posts: 874
Post MSHSAA Suggestion Thread
Jeff,

I appreciate your post. I will read through it a little closer and see what we can do. I am pretty sure the 14-limit will be gone. I already have support from that from some of the others on the advisory committee.

Thanks again,


Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:03 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006
Posts: 816
Location: Not quite Baltimore. Not quite Washington, D.C.
Post MSHSAA Suggestion Thread
U. Lou Sthagaim wrote:
U. Lou Sthagaim

So wrote:
my suggestion to MSHSAA[/b] is to repeal any restrictions that hinder teams from participating in "non-MSHSAA quizbowl" tournaments, including:
• the 14 tournament restriction. Such a restriction makes some sense for athletics (reducing risk of injury and whatnot) but this makes no sense at all for quizbowl.
• the 250 mile restriction. While the vast majority of teams probably aren't going to be traveling outside of 250 miles anyway (especially considering the general financial situation right now), removing this would allow able teams to travel to distant tournaments over spring break, winter break, etc.
• the "second Friday in October" to "the date of Districts" season. Restricting when students can play quizbowl is illogical.
• any policies that might be in place that restrict teams' participation in national tournaments.
• any other policies that restrict students from participating fully in this academic endeavor.

I would like to point out here that only a small handful of states have any of the rules Jeff quoted here. The only other state I can think of that restricts the time of year that quiz bowl teams can play is Kansas, and only Kansas and Illinois restrict the number of tournaments that teams can play annually (Kansas allows 8; Illinois allows, I believe, 19). Even Illinois allows high school teams and players to play college-level events, which has been expressly forbidden in Missouri for a decade. Kansas is also the only other state I can think of that has any regulation on national competition or qualification thereof.

In every other state, teams can play where they want when they want. That's why the national-caliber teams from D.C. and South Carolina and Pennsylvania, etc., do as well as they do. They can play anybody anytime without any restrictions. No other state would give any consideration whatsoever to imposing any of these rules on quiz bowl teams. Given that, why should we subjected to it?


Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:30 am
Profile WWW

Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007
Posts: 171
Post MSHSAA Suggestion Thread
I believe that this problem might be resolved by counting all conference games as 2 tournaments. Then, you could still go to 12 other, high profile tournaments. As it stands now, if you play one conference game tonight, it would count as a tournament. To be honest, I am surprised that nobody on this board has ripped this rule, as it makes no sense whatever. We might join a conference if this rule was changed. You could play three games a night for 12 Mondays, and still go to 12 open tournaments on Saturday. That would get you a lot of practice for state.

My experience in Oklahoma is that most schools join conferences. Very few schools sponsor tournaments on the weekends. I hosted at least four tournaments a year, but I can't recall going to very many schools for tournaments. Oklahoma's season begins in August, with districts in late October, regionals in November, areas in January, and state the first weekend in February. To be honest, it's kind of nice to finish in February as a coach. I personally do not want our season extended any further without an increase in pay.

Bob Brown


Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:36 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006
Posts: 4134
Location: Columbia, MO
Post MSHSAA Suggestion Thread
That's not the whole story.


Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:06 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006
Posts: 4134
Location: Columbia, MO
Post MSHSAA Suggestion Thread
Also, I and at least Kyle Hill, possibly others, have spent multiple posts ripping that rule. The idea of restricting the number of dates played to begin with is absurd, and that rule makes it even dumber. However, I don't agree with the plan to make all conferences count as 2 (lots of conferences are 1 day long). A simpler rule would be just to eliminate the restrictions.


Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:55 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006
Posts: 1877
Location: St. Louis, MO
Post MSHSAA Suggestion Thread
Charbroil wrote:
DeckardCain wrote:
The students who play quizbowl are the ones who succeed academically, so additional missed class time will not affect them nearly as much. The increased competitiveness seen in high school quizbowl nationwide only means that students who participate are learning more, which is obviously a good thing.
[quote = "DeckardCain"] There is no risk of injury in quizbowl.


Quote:
I don't know...I've always wondered about WUHSAC's policy about player incapacitation and how while a player can be substituted out for incapacitation, the player can't have incapacitated him/herself. Has that actually happened before? :D (By the way, this is not a serious concern)\


I believe this was meant in reference to a particular College Bowl regionals where a player on Mizzou's team in the semi-final did become incapacitated as a result of food poisoning and was told prior to the start of play that should he feel the need to vomit that he could not return to the match if he left and there could be no substitution. He then proceeded to vomit mid-match. I also saw an instance where a student had a rather horrific nosebleed at a college bowl regional and substitution was again not allowed, although he left the room (and by the way I saw the result in the bathroom later and MAN it was nasty). That's basically the gist of that rule: as a reaction to inane, arbitrary CBI (may it bedazzle a handbasket and have it waiting for the MSHSAA format in a special place down below:)).


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89056/'>scphilli</a>, Mar 31 2009, 10:08:27 PM.</div>


Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:06 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004
Posts: 6289
Location: In between the bright lights and the far unlit unknown (aka Johnson County, KS)
Post MSHSAA Suggestion Thread
I know it has been linked to out of frustration several times over the last couple of days, but I just want to point out again that this post supports my suggestion of removing all of the unnecessary restrictions. (I had originally referred to it as "above" in my original post, but after moving my post to this thread that is no longer the case)

While you should still read it for the details if you haven't already, it basically says that Illinois and Virginia are the only two states with nationally active quizbowl circuits that are governed by a MSHSAA-like organization at all, and they don't impose nearly as many restrictions as MSHSAA does; as a result, teams in those states benefit more from this activity.

==================
As for the 14 tournament restriction, it's not just the problems with dual matches, KC Suburban Conference Quads-type tournaments, and the like eating up several tournaments; it's the simple fact that there's a restriction in the first place that needs to be addressed.

And as for removing the explicit October-April season restriction, if it were removed I imagine that the active season would still remain about that length anyway (so Richland could still participate only from October-May if you choose to coach your team that way), but again, it's an arbitrary restriction that keeps teams or players that WANT to play at other times of the year from doing so.


Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:45 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005
Posts: 394
Post MSHSAA Suggestion Thread
U. Lou Sthagaim wrote:
KC Suburban Conference Quads-type tournaments, and the like eating up several tournaments
I think that might have changed this year, but doesn't change the fact that the tournament still sucks...


Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:23 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Forum style by STSoftware for PTF.
Translated by Maël Soucaze © 2010 phpBB.fr