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MSHSAA District Assignments Today 
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Is there actually any evidence that MSHSAA is lying about having lost Matt's bid? If so, please email me about it. If not, then this accusation should probably stop.


Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:05 pm
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I will admit that not anyone can beat everyone else, but judging from the Truman results, upsets happen at a high frequency and in no way show actual quizbowl ability. Throw all the same teams in a tournament with clue dense pyramidal questions and no lighting round nonsense and I guarantee different results.


Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:13 pm
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Look, even if the MSHSAA is telling the truth (which they may very well be, but I've been involved in dealing with them enough to know that they've pulled some most dishonest nonsense, so I'm still probably never going to truly be convinced either way) it is still unacceptable for Gibbs to imply they got pigeonholed into taking Questions Galore's bid through no fault of their own when it is very much their fault for misplacing the other bid they got, not to mention their other policies preventing other companies who may have bid from bidding. Focus on fixing the system (both the system that lost the bid and hte system that discourages other bids) so you will never again have to take Questions Galore's bid and turn the state championship into a day of gibbering nonsense.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89049/'>ashkenaziCD</a>, Jan 13 2009, 04:38:09 PM.</div>


Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:37 pm
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Well, yeah, but there's a difference between accusing MSHSAA of negligence and incompetence and accusing them of deliberately losing a bid. The former is fine, and you're probably going to get a lot of people on this board (including me) to agree with you; the latter is not, since that's a pretty serious charge (in fact, depending on how broad a view the Missouri Supreme Court takes of "state actors," you're quite likely accusing them of breaking the law) and that's something that shouldn't be made without evidence.


Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:53 pm
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In any case, as you yourself said, Gibbs is part of the MSHSAA advisory committee, not part of MSHSAA itself. Unless I'm wrong about what the advisory committee does (which is possible), I get the impression that it gets input on MSHSAA's decisions, but has no influence on, say, secretarial competence.

I mentioned MACA explicitly because that was the role of Coach Gibbs which first popped into mind, but in any case the overall idea I got was that bids are sent to MSHSAA's office, which reviews & processes them (hopefully). Then, bids are sent to MACA & the MSHSAA advisory committee for review and input. If that's true, then there isn't much you can criticize Gibbs, MACA, or the MSHSAA advisory committee for, since they're not responsible for processing the submission of bids (which is the most plausible location for losing the bid).


Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:02 pm
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There are certainly things to criticize them about. Losing any bids that were sent to MSHSAA is not one of them though.


Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:20 pm
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I'm criticizing the behavior that is being exhibited by implying "this is a problem that was totally out of the MSHSAA's control" in this thread, which you seem to not understand, Charles.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89049/'>ashkenaziCD</a>, Jan 13 2009, 09:39:34 PM.</div>


Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:38 pm
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That wasn't the original impression you gave. Coach Gibbs, in his capacity as part of the MSHSAA advisory committee, mentioned that they hoped that they would get more than one bid to review. You said that they already did for 08-09. He said they didn't. I commented that they probably didn't because the alternative bid was lost in transit before the committee ever saw it.

Certainly, MSHSAA should have done something to find a better provider instead of just going with QG. But that wasn't the point of your original post


Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:42 pm
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Actually, it kind of was.


Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:14 pm
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the last ramsfan wrote:

I also demand a BCS system. If there were one though, MSHSAA would find a way to mess it up anyway. I see quiz bowl in five years as this black hole that sucks up and destroys excellence and the reason why... MSHSAA!

NO! You blew it up! (Adam West, Family Guy reference)
What would this type of BCS system in quiz bowl entail? Some teams, just like college football D1, would lose out due to location, school size, and school finances. What if a good team didn't have money for many matches against good schools? BCS score for that school would drop, just b/c of school finances. The playoff system unfortunately works, but MSHSAA needs to go NAQT based. This discussion for NAQT bidding has been a long one basically since this site started, most agree on it. However, MSHSAA will not do it. But, I seriously don't think you can take MSHSAA out due to cost of state and district tourneys.


Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:00 pm
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ashkenaziCD wrote:
FZW Coach wrote:
I just hope we get more than 1 question proposal.
You did, in fact.


Quote:
Actually, it kind of was [about implying "this is a problem that was totally out of the MSHSAA's control" in this thread].


I think there might be a slight difference in focus in these two posts...the first implies that you think Gibbs got more than one proposal. The second is about you attacking the idea that MSHSAA has nothing to do with our current situation.

The second idea I agree with, the first, it seems generally agreed, is untrue. Still, I get how you might have meant the second while seeming to sound like the first...so let's just agree to disagree, alright?



<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89143/'>Charbroil</a>, Jan 14 2009, 07:25:34 PM.</div>


Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:24 pm
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You still don't seem to understand that as I interpreted it, Gibbs was using the word "we" in the broad term of "the state of Missouri/MSHSAA/whatever encompasses the general idea of having multiple companies bid on our state championship" and not in the sense of "things I am directly involved with doing."


Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:43 pm
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Hey Kevin, first cool to finally talk to one of the best players of Class 1, hands down. We didn't go to state in 2006, simply because we were stuck in the same district as Thomas Jefferson; when they still had that punk Nate Kinast. I know it's a terrible thing to say, but when we beat them in the prelims, HE THREW A POP BOTTLE ACROSS THE ROOM, ALMOST BREAKING A WINDOW. The caps were needed, believe me he flung it. Unfortunately, the questions didn't swing our way in the Finals and we were beat by 30 points. :( After the year you guys were in the the finals, we went to the state finals, only to be beat by... Thomas Jefferson.

Simply put, I am tired of getting beat by Thomas Jefferson. I figure every team in Class 1 is though.


Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:44 pm
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Quote:
when they still had that punk Nate Kinast. I know it's a terrible thing to say, but when we beat them in the prelims, HE THREW A POP BOTTLE ACROSS THE ROOM, ALMOST BREAKING A WINDOW. The caps were needed, believe me he flung it.

HAH!


Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:45 pm
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That reminds me of a similar amusing anecdote involving a certain player from NKC and a cherry coke.


Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:50 pm
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It sounds stupid... I've got two guesses as to who this mystery player from NKC is, but I feel I won't even need one.

Needless to say, when Mr. Kinast threw the pop bottle across the room, it was amusing and scary at the same time. I thought he might turn green and start yelling "NATE SMASH!" His dad was the coach, and when we beat them, he lost it. Apparently, they had a lot to win for.


Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:00 pm
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The best will always be Chris Ray "leaning into" Charles Meigs, prompting Charles to spill his drink and angrily throw it at Chris.


Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:13 pm
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ashkenaziCD wrote:
You still don't seem to understand that as I interpreted it, Gibbs was using the word "we" in the broad term of "the state of Missouri/MSHSAA/whatever encompasses the general idea of having multiple companies bid on our state championship" and not in the sense of "things I am directly involved with doing."
Eh, I imagined that you might be. In any case, I didn't read it that way, but your interpretation makes sense if you do. *Shrugs* Like I said, we can agree to disagree.

And wow, you guys are violent...why is it none of my matches are ever that exciting? :D


Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:55 pm
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the last ramsfan wrote:
Simply put, I am tired of getting beat by Thomas Jefferson. I figure every team in Class 1 is though.
Who doesn't in class 1? :angry: Private schools should be moved out of public divisions into a separate division of their own. TJ is private and picks their own talent. Public schools cannot pick their talent, they get stuck with students and have to build talent. At TJ, the talent is already there and just needs to be slightly nudged unlike having to be built up. TJ is a prime example of a MSHSAA being unfair in Class 1. Every year, they go to state, which prevents other good teams in districts from going to state. That district has had a rare occasion of another team going to state once or twice since MSHSAA took over in AC. I was thankful my senior year, our district was moved away from TJ, because TJ would have won. Next, private schools have more funding than public schools, which they can use to go to more contests. Why does Hume not go to districts in QB anymore? Money. It costs money in quiz bowl to travel everywhere and public schools don't have a backlog of cash to go to contests. However, TJ still has to go to Hume for Basketball Districts, where we, at Hume, have a good chance of beating them. So if TJ wins quiz bowl, they probably will not go far in basketball districts. ^_^


Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:11 pm
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I actually will pipe up in the MSHSAA's defense for once at their decision not to fully segregate private schools. In the context of quizbowl, statments like
Quote:
TJ is private and picks their own talent.
are absurdities. The things that define a good team are the work the individual players put in, not the fact that a school can choose not to accept everybody (actually, the thought of a school truly caring enough about the success of their quizbowl team to actively recruit the so-called talent is bizarre to me and probably most players). In the history of the PACE National Championship, 0 private schools have won titles, and in the history of NAQT Nationals, 3 private school teams have ever won the tournament (2 from Detroit Catholic Central, emphasizing the fact that their program bred the success, not their selection process, and one from St. John's which similarly has always had fairly successful teams). Even within the MSHSAA history, TJIDS's run is somewhat of an anomaly, as the vast majority of teams that have won state titles are public (look at Richland, Savannah, NKC, Liberty, Parkway Central, Ladue, Cuba, Boonville...off the top of my head, the only other private teams that have won a title that I can think of are Priory, Notre Dame, and Westminster, each at one title). In fact, doesn't your assertion about how Hume will beat TJ at basketball districts only support the argument that there probably isn't much inherently dominating about a private school that a public school can't overcome?
As for the money, well I don't feel that it is fair to hamstring teams because of their funding methods out of some socialist desire for equality - the reality is if you are a team that doesn't have a lot of money yet wants to travel to more events, it is your responsibility to host tournaments or otherwise fundraise. That is what hundreds of schools across the country do every year, and it is the simple solution to that problem. There is no reason to use that as an excuse for not playing as well as a private school, or else why would so many public schools overcome that barrier? Hume's decision not to attend districts is truly one of motivation, unless there is some secret school rule specifically banning clubs from raising funds, which I think (hope) is just a preposterous thought.
Also, notice the minimal turnover the TJ team has had - lots of the players on their state championship teams were on for long stretches of time (Nate was on since like his freshman year or something, his brother was on before that, Virginia has been on since her freshman year, I think Mike was on since his freshman year). If the nature of a program's success truly had nothing to do with a player's commitment, then you would be much more likely to see a high degree of turnover as new recruits replace old recruits each year - instead these players stick around for a long time and dedicate their time and energy into the game, not to mention the work the coach puts in. There is no reason at all for public school not to truly be able to pull together a competent team considering the vast amount of free resources for quizbowl there are on the internet and the simple answer to the funding problem. Attacking TJ just because it is a private school seems to be batting away at a straw man, ignoring the realities of what actually makes a team be better than another team.
Also, let's take a minute to contemplate what would happen if private schools were not allowed to play public schools for the MSHSAA state championship - there would probably be something like in Virginia, where the private schools form their own shadow league and for the most part become completely disconnected from the healthy circuit, making it harder for the kids who attend private school to derive the benefits of an activity that public school kids are able to make use of. I personally find the idea of depriving kids the chance to participate normally in an activity just because they happen to go to a school that is "too good" nothing short of abhorrent. Non-quizbowl digression on the same subject: Also, the thought of making a private schools division would quite possibly become far less competitive than the state titles currently are, because schools like Rockhurst (that actually do recruit sports talent, so about that you are correct, but not quizbowl) and have lots of funding would perenially crush the parochial schools, independent schools with 150 kids to choose from, whatever you have it in many athletic events other than some random years when a really good underdog pulls together, leading to probably some degree of lessened competition than what they have currently - a system where the schools are matched up against a lot of other schools with similar sizes, drawing pools, and to a certain extent, money (although like I said, Rockhurst is certainly an exception to this). While I don't really care about this aspect of the argument - a state championship is a state championship no matter what your competition is like - I still think it is another gaping hole in your logic here, AJ, because no matter what idealized portrait you want to paint of private schools, having spent part of high school in one myself I can confirm firsthand that there are lots of private schools desperately strapped for cash, full of not very good students, full of poor curricula, awful teachers, bad test results, terrible teams, whatever. In fact, like in public school, the number of these kinds of bad schools undoubtedly far outweighs the number of the good schools, i.e. the ones you are complaining about.
In summary, stop blaming schools and start getting motivated because their being selective is no excuse for losing to them.


Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:02 am
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Well, if you're really interested, Charles H, next time we get 1st seed and have to play you guys anyway, we can arrange to catapult a box of Oreos at you . . . although I doubt they have the same destructive potential as one well-aimed diet Pepsi.


Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:54 am
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Charles, Your logic on some points is correct. My alma mater spends more time and more money on basketball. But TJ always takes districts in QB, which has caused a lot of schools to just give up QB districts. Some schools cannot justify the dollars spent, if they are only going to lose. I see your point of building a good team, but every loss in districts to the same school washes away inspiration to try harder. Why try, if you are going to knocked down? I know the Rocky eupherisms, "it's not how hard you're hit,you get back up." But many schools just say skip it. I remember as a freshman playing in TJ's districts how many schools were there, only 3 or 4 including us. The other schools thought they had no chance, so they didn't come. I used to think like you did, Charles, TJ can be beaten in districts, but it hasn't happened in over 6 years, which makes you think, why are they always winning? I don't dislike TJ, it's just they don't let other teams have a chance. Another remedy for that districts is to send 2 teams in TJ's district instead of one, so other teams are motivated to try for state. These teams in TJ's districts would do well in state, they are just smeltered by TJ's dominance which prevents them from going further past districts.


Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:15 am
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WillHack wrote:
Well, if you're really interested, Charles H, next time we get 1st seed and have to play you guys anyway, we can arrange to catapult a box of Oreos at you . . . although I doubt they have the same destructive potential as one well-aimed diet Pepsi.
Lol...I'll keep that in mind for WUHSAC. :D

Though I somehow doubt that either of us will make 1st seed. :P


Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:31 am
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ajax wrote:
The other schools thought they had no chance, so they didn't come. I used to think like you did, Charles, TJ can be beaten in districts, but it hasn't happened in over 6 years, which makes you think, why are they always winning? I don't dislike TJ, it's just they don't let other teams have a chance. Another remedy for that districts is to send 2 teams in TJ's district instead of one, so other teams are motivated to try for state. These teams in TJ's districts would do well in state, they are just smeltered by TJ's dominance which prevents them from going further past districts.
Boo hoo.

If you can't beat TJ your not going to do well at State anyway.

"We would do better if all these good teams would give us a chance... and stop winning so much."

:huh:


Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:24 pm
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MJones wrote:
Boo hoo.

If you can't beat TJ your not going to do well at State anyway.

"We would do better if all these good teams would give us a chance... and stop winning so much."

:huh:



I am not boo-hooing over anything, I am just pointing out the obvious in that district. Yeah, they wouldn't do well at state, but at least they can go to state. And if you actually competed in this district and seen it for awhile, you might agree with me. It sounds very anti-sport like, but other schools need some form of <big>Motivation</big> to keep trying. TJ used to motivate other teams, but the other teams started giving up after so many losses. No matter how much they improved, TJ was always better. Maybe I can hope TJ will lose for once. I am not as young and cocky as senior captains of teams are, and that is not a bad thing for captains to be, captains have to be cocky and strong to lead a team, but I've grown more pragmatic. I understand what all of you are saying about getting stronger, but look at the statistics in that districts. It just seems unfair to everyone but TJ


Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:13 pm
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ajax wrote:
It just seems unfair to everyone but TJ
"It's so unfair that all these teams are better than us. If they would stop being so good every year, than maybe we would have a reason to try."

I don't have to be in your district to see how hard it is. We lose to Richland every year in our conference. I still try hard to beat them though, and don't think it is unfair. They are a well coached, hard working team. If a team where cheating, that's "unfair". There is nothing "unfair" about being good.


Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:38 pm
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Okay, first let me say this before I get serious: Mountain Dew bottles hold the destructive force of a nuclear explosion. If it hits anyone in the head, they either are put into a coma or simply die. Luckily, that incident didn't injure anybody, although it came VERY close. Okay, time to get serious.

When it comes to private schools, I agree with some points AJ points out, but some that Charlie points out as well. I do agree with AJ to a certain point that private schools do recruit better talent. Simply put Charlie, if your parents are doctors, lawyers, college professors, etc., you can afford to send your children to private schools where some of the best teachers in Missouri teach, and if those children are taught to be academic juggernauts, they will in turn probably participate in competitions that encourage use of the knowledge they have picked up during their school years, that is where quiz bowl comes in. I will be the first to admit, I can barely play basketball or baseball. If you knew the history of Bradleyville School, you would realize not playing basketball in high school there is not a very popular move. However, in recent years, both of our teams have had unusually bad down years, but this is besides the point.

The point to which I don't agree with AJ on is the idea that because these schools have more money, they in turn get to go to more tournaments, in which those tournaments allow them to get better. At Bradleyville, we are constrained for money, simply because of the budget the government sets up, not to mention we are located in the Mark Twain National Forest, and the money we collect off property taxes aren't much. We are lucky though to have a school that supports our team to the best of their abilities. When we learned that we would host districts, our coach informed our superintendent that we didn't have the best quality buzzers to use, so he just told her to buy new ones, which just surprised all of us. AJ, both of our schools may not have (or possibly in your case have had) the resources to go to 5-7 tournaments a year, this doesn't mean our teams will be constantly beaten by TJDS all the time. We may have only beaten them in prelims of 2006, but we still beat them. It was because we had three people (myself, Matt Haden, and possibly the greatest literature player in Class 1 history, Jon Blakey) and one of the best supporting casts imaginable, which all had some kind of knowledge which contributed to the team. The other times, we gave them a legitamite run for their money, and the only reason they won, or in which anyone wins is because they got more questions that worked to their general form of expertise.

Futhermore AJ, if you want to motivate a team, the best motivataion in my mind is to take down a team that has won their district so many times in a row. It is because of teams like TJ I have worked even harder to become a better player, to make sure that a class just isn't about one or two teams, like it has been in Class 2 for some time now. Every year I get to go to state with my team is one more chance to even out the competition between all the different schools. It isn't like we're making it an easy road for TJ, teams like Bradleyville, KC Lutheran, Tarkio, Glassgow, and St. Joe's Christian have been making life on TJ rough for some time now, and in recent years Lockwood has been a huge problem for TJ in districts. Separating public and private schools would only make competition for the two less entertaining.

(Note: Mike, do you even have ANY clue as to how well TJ plays? I'm not disagreeing with what I have said above, but if we would have won in TJ's district in '06 or even have gotten to go to state, I am 99.9% sure we would have advanced on to the semifinals and maybe even play against TJ or Tarkio in the finals, if we beat either of them.)


Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:00 pm
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Now after that, quick announcement for all who didn't know this: MSHSAA has released the location of everyone's respective district tournament the most notable being the Liberty/NKC district, where Liberty will host. As to everyone else's location, do you have a general problem with it? I know for my district, C1/ D2, Bakersfield wouldn't show up if the tournament was held in Verona or Wheaton, and probably wouldn't have if it was in Niangua. I'm sure Verona and Wheaton were the same way about Bakersfield, meaning that the only choices would have been us or Hurley, and I would have raised an uproar over Hurley, especially after how they ran our conference tournament, and I wasn't wanting Niangua to have a possible advantage with their school having the home advantage. Our school wanted to host it, so I guess we are now. Any thoughts about your respective district host schools?


Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:11 pm
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I think it's sad that nobody else in our district has the capacity to host districts. . . .


Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:22 am
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Hallsville's a good spot for our districts. They've definitely got the capacity and the experience. I'm willing to volunteer my time that day if need be as well, so staffing won't be an issue.

It's alternated between there and South Callaway the last few years. Really, Fulton would be a great location but they haven't hosted anything in years to the best of my knowledge. It would be a little more central, but the trip from Mokane to Hallsville is the longest one in the district anyway.


Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:27 am
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Quote:
I do agree with AJ to a certain point that private schools do recruit better talent. Simply put Charlie, if your parents are doctors, lawyers, college professors, etc., you can afford to send your children to private schools where some of the best teachers in Missouri teach, and if those children are taught to be academic juggernauts, they will in turn probably participate in competitions that encourage use of the knowledge they have picked up during their school years, that is where quiz bowl comes in.

Then where are these private school quizbowl juggernauts at Pembroke Hill, Barstow, Rockhurst, and the legion of well regarded schools in St. Louis, among others. I am someone who has attended both a large public school and a small private school that is far more representative of the average private school in terms of demographics and education. The private school I went to (Maur Hill-Mount Academy) was chock full of people who were not what i would call rolling in dough - their families for the most part got by like everybody else, but only a small number of the non-boarders (and most of the boarders, too) came fromt he demographic of very high middle class that you are describing. I would contend that the vast majority of people attending private schools in America do not come from too wildly different a tax bracket then at the average public school (yeah, urban schools crammed full of poor people don't match up, but most things above that). I can also confirm that at MHMA, at least, the education was nothing really any different than a crappy public school, and that there are lots of schools like this (in fact, the education at NKC, which is by all accounts a school with tons of different economic backgrounds, most poorer than the rest, was miles ahead of that offered by MHMA). In other words, beyond a few very elite schools, I really don't find there to be compelling evidence that rich people fill the private school system, or that these schools, many of which are strapped for cash and can't afford anywhere near the best teachers out there, are different enough in their experience that they will automatically produce "academic juggernauts" that are going to create steroid pumped East German quizbowl teams. Instead, when these schools do succeed, it invariably comes down to a group of dedicated students and/or a good coach who cares and puts the time in, which is absolutely no different than what happens at successful public school quizbowl teams.


Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:41 am
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the last ramsfan wrote:
We didn't go to state in 2006, simply because we were stuck in the same district as Thomas Jefferson; when they still had that punk Nate Kinast. ... :( After the year you guys were in the the finals, we went to the state finals, only to be beat by... Thomas Jefferson. ... Simply put, I am tired of getting beat by Thomas Jefferson. I figure every team in Class 1 is though.
That stinks. I know that if we had cause to play them more often (being in the same district, or playing at many of the same tournaments) I know I'd be sick of seeing them. Throwing a pop bottle forcefully across the room doesn't reek of good sportsmanship, either, but that's just me.

(I thought I had something better to say, but unfortunately there is no longer a "View Topic" option at the bottom of the reply page, and so instead of being able to view the entire topic and reply at will, as I was planning, I had to retype my response.)

Quote:
Any thoughts about your respective district host schools?


Our district host is St. Joe Christian - I've only been there once for the 2007 Lions tournament, which I don't remember being very well organized, but we'll have to see how it goes.


Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:43 am
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Charlie, speaking from the point I have seen TJDS play (I don't know about you in this case.), been to their school, and have gotten the overall general air that sometimes seems to show up with private schools, allow me to say this: I am not trying to say all private schools have monstrous teams that just seem to destroy other ones who are less fortunate, I am simply saying that these schools, unlike the public schools of Missouri have a choice. They can choose to accept a student or reject one, unlike public schools, where you can basically quote what the whole idea of the Statue of Liberty is. The proof is in the Missouri school test scores. These schools basically work like baseball teams. They find the best prospects, offer them contracts, or in this case, the opportunity to go to their school, and the parents, seeing this golden opportunity, take it. For the most part, TJDS does have kids whose parents are doctors, lawyers, so on, and so forth. I know not all private schools don't live up to expectations of good quiz bowl teams, but TJ is one of those teams. Saying you went to a private school Charlie, for some time and it didn't compare to NKC says something about the quality of education, but also says your family could afford to do it. My family couldn't do it if they wanted to, but I am proud to say I feel I get one of the best educations in Missouri from Bradleyville, even though the education department sees it fit that we don't exactly have the best teachers, but believe me, it's the students who don't work that drop our schools, which shows the private schools abilities to accept anybody they want, and if those accepted don't work out, probably kick them out for not applying themselves, a luxury public schools aren't afforded.

I am not trying to compare it, but private schools, being able to recruit and pick and choose who they accept, which some of these people go on to successful quiz bowl teams, are just like larger public schools. Now I am not saying hard work doesn't account for anything and being a great player just comes down to skill because it doesn't. What I am saying is that private schools can select low-risk children who they know will work (or in some cases, the parents with the deepest pockets, I'm not judging) and know will be extremely bright, and with the right motivation can get them to be quiz bowl players of the highest level. In my mind, it's basically the same as larger schools with quiz bowl teams- countless people show up, and the coach selects 8-24 people, for however any teams you may have such as an A, B, and C team, which will include the most talent, and the people who will work to become the talented players, making these teams holy terrors on their respective classes, and if they still compete on a national level, I know the MSHSAA rules are restricting, possibly very dangerous teams when it comes to nationals, ala NKC last year and the year before that.


Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:19 pm
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I'm going to resurrect this thread to discuss an issue related to the public/private debate: the classification of single-gender schools.

Currently, the enrollment of such a school is doubled for all MSHSAA activities. This seems totally unfair to me; while it does make some sense for athletics, since a single-gender school with X students theoretically has twice as many students with which to form a team than a coed school with X students, it makes little sense for academic competition, as quizbowl teams can consist of both males and females and the situation above does not apply. For this reason, I'd really like to see the double-enrollment rule removed for quizbowl. Thoughts?


Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:25 pm
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That would make sense to me.

Using that rule, a single-gender school of say 130 students would be classified as having 260 students - a jump from the Class 1/Class 2 border to somewhere in Class 3. While this may be appropriate for most activities, in Academic Bowl I would think that the double-enrollment rule might be a disadvantage for the single-gender school, at least - granted, that may just be based on my experience with academic bowl, and how my school has jumped in the space of my high school career from Class 1, where it was probably one of the larger Class 1 schools, to Class 2 for the 2006-07 and 2007-08 school years, where it was one of the smallest schools, and this year we're back to Class 1, where we are probably once again one of the larger schools.


Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:33 pm
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Yes, it is logical to eliminate enrollment doubling for single-gender schools in coed activities since a mixed school of 200 students has the same number of potential candidates for a quizbowl team as a single-gender school of 200 students.

The private school 1.35 multiplier should remain in place since the perceived advantage for athletics applies to academics as well.


Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:51 pm
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This makes no sense for the many coed sports/activities. I agree.


Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:01 pm
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Hey, from what I understand of reading the mhshaa rules, there are no District / Sectional individual awards? At least, I can't see mention of any individual awards besides state. Is that correct?


Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:48 pm
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They aren't anything MSHSAA deals with - MACA takes the stats and gives out the awards.


Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:39 pm
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Hmm, that seems strange. And MSHSAA doesn't mind?


Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:58 am
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MSHSAA hates quizbowl


Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:38 pm
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Indeed. So then, will MACA give out individual awards for Districts? For Sectionals? How will such be determined under the new system?


Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:46 pm
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The same way MACA's always done it, I can't imagine they will give out sectional awards sicne only 2 teams play.


Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:56 pm
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Well, I saw where they wouldn't give you an award because you only played 2 games. The thing is, our District only will have 3 participating teams. Thus, assuming they have a championship game, 2 teams will play 3 total games and the other will play 2. I don't know that they counted the elimination games in the past, anyway (my lack of knowledge here is staggering).

So my thought process was, myabe the awards will be distributed on a PPG basis across a Sectional; that is, there would be all-Sectional awards for the top PPG scorers over the 2 Districts competing in one Section. That's probably wrong, like you said; but how will they be distributed for my District, then? Will we even be eligible, assuming no team plays 3 games before the District "championship" game?


Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:12 pm
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They "didn't" give me an award because of a nonsense rule put in place about having to be there the whole tournament (although I still have a medal and was damn well the best player in my district, so to quote Mozart, Leck mich im Arsch you people telling me I wasn't all-district).


Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:38 pm
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Wasn't the issue more that they only gave out awards for the top scorer in the preliminary rounds and that you weren't there for preliminaries?

No offense, but that does make sense--that's the same system as at the NAQT Qualifier, where the high scorer was picked out of preliminary results. The reason for that (as you yourself explained to me) was because only in preliminaries did everyone play teams of the same caliber, as opposed to playoffs, where everyone played teams of greater difficulty.

The fact that districts were single elimination rather than pool play makes this issue worse, of course, but the same argument holds.


Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:23 pm
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No it wasn't Charles - if you look at previous results, you'll see that mathematically they calculate the averages out simply by however many games you heard over the entire day. I would agree with you that just using prelims makes sense, but that's not their criteria to begin with.


Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:29 pm
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*Shrug* If they limit all district awards to individuals who attended all preliminary matches or to preliminary results only, I'm not going to worry about it. (The former is kind of random, but who cares...the later makes sense).

Edit: Just to note, I missed the subtext earlier about how MACA might have changed the rule just for last year to keep Charlie from getting an all District award. I don't think so, personally, but we'll just see for this year.




<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89143/'>Charbroil</a>, Feb 28 2009, 11:10:25 PM.</div>


Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:09 pm
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ashkenaziCD wrote:
They "didn't" give me an award because of a nonsense rule put in place about having to be there the whole tournament (although I still have a medal and was damn well the best player in my district, so to quote Mozart, Leck mich im Arsch you people telling me I wasn't all-district).
What you said is correct. This had nothing to do with you, though, since the rule was voted on in October. The same rule will apply this year.


Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:36 pm
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Quote:
Edit: Just to note, I missed the subtext earlier about how MACA might have changed the rule just for last year to keep Charlie from getting an all District award.

That's impossible since as coach Gibbs said, the rule was already in place. You keep making assumptions about what I'm talking about that are untrue, Charles, and I'd appreciate if they are at least verified as what I actually said in private before you post them here in the future.


Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:40 pm
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