Looking for study material?
Prepare for next season with thousands of packets FREE for study and practice use from the Quizbowl Packet Archive!
Need a new buzzer system? Apply for a $250 Matt's Buzzers grant!
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:10 pm



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 129 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread? 
Author Message

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005
Posts: 504
Location: Drury (Springfield)
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
I'm gonna laugh when MSHSAA shedules state during 2007 Graduation, which is May 12.


Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:26 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004
Posts: 6322
Location: In between the bright lights and the far unlit unknown (aka Johnson County, KS)
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
It's already been scheduled for May 5, which is graduation at Truman... so I won't be there!


Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:29 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005
Posts: 504
Location: Drury (Springfield)
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
Open Mouth; insert foot.

It's just as well. Regardless of whether or not we win (which isn't likely... As we won districts by College Heights knocking out Purdy) I'll be there to spectate.


Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:31 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006
Posts: 4134
Location: Columbia, MO
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
Are you guys going to TJI's tournament on Oct. 21?
--EDIT--
I'll move that query to another thread.


Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:57 pm
Profile

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005
Posts: 504
Location: Drury (Springfield)
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
We never get invited. Or we don't pay, which is stupid cuz we have a hundred bucks lying around. I think.


Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:31 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006
Posts: 4134
Location: Columbia, MO
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
S.C.Mitchell07 wrote:
We never get invited. Or we don't pay, which is stupid cuz we have a hundred bucks lying around. I think.

OK, first off, the tournament is not an invitational. An application for it is right here on their team website. Secondly, just because something "is" an invitational doesn't mean it actuall is. Basically, invitational means if you know the TD, you're invited, and if you email the TD asking to go, you're invited. Invitational is just something to make a tournament sound prestigious. And dude, pick on your coach to fork out the money to go to more tournaments, because your 2nd at state that close to Richland tells me you guys could be competitive, and one of the best ways to get better is to compete as much as you can.


Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:47 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006
Posts: 816
Location: Not quite Baltimore. Not quite Washington, D.C.
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
ScoBo1987 wrote:
Was it the coaches association that ran it before 1996?


Yes. The predecessor to MACA, the Missouri Academic Association (MAA), ran the show before that. MAA ran state tournaments at least back to 1992.

I played for Cuba in the last MAA State tournament in 1995. We won Class 2 that day, and we had three All-Staters, including myself as a freshman. I have the booklet from that tournament still. :)

Pre-MSHSAA state champions, that I have records for:

1995: Class I: Bernie over a team I cannot remember. (Joe Turner's last year at Bernie; he put up Mike Wehrman-type numbers before Wehrman came along.)
Class II: Cuba over Cameron (345 to 165)
Class III: Savannah over SLUH (485 to 185, I think? And a young sophomore named Mike Wehrman averaged 16, I think. That was the year Savannah finished 4th at ASCN, with senior Shawn Logan leading the way.)

1994: Class I: North Shelby over Purdy (405 to 175)
Class II: Bernie over Brookfield (330 to 265)
Class III: Savannah over Ft. Zumwalt South (295 to 285)

1993: Class I: Bernie over North Shelby (305 to 190)
Class II: Mary's Institute/Country Day over St. James [listed as John F. Hodge, but it's St. James] (295 to 210)
Class III: Liberty over Ft. Zumwalt South (420 to 210; in the days of Conan at Liberty)

1992: Class I: North Shelby over Palmyra (300 to 210)
Class II: Hannibal over William Chrisman (415 to 230)

(Update--9-24-09) When I worked the Savannah tournament earlier this year, Bill Luce mentioned to me that 1992 was the first state tournament, if I remember correctly. '92 and maybe '93 were only 40-tossup games in the same four-quarter style as today. At some point, I need to bug Luce to open up all his old records.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89050/'>PenforPrez</a>, Sep 24 2009, 08:07:34 PM.</div>


Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:56 am
Profile WWW
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006
Posts: 816
Location: Not quite Baltimore. Not quite Washington, D.C.
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
STPickrell wrote:
The following states have their MSHSAA-type group run their state championships:

Missouri (of course)
Virginia
Oklahoma
Arkansas
Kansas
Illinois


Add Florida to that list. I had a long discussion with a Florida coach at HSNCT, and she said MSHSAA's equivalent in FL runs a state tournament. However, they don't mess with the rules. Missouri and Kansas have the most restrictive rules in the nation (Kansas being slightly worse than MO), and I don't find that the least bit surprising.

Does Virginia's equivalent do rules and regs? Arkansas doesn't; that's why those guys play 30-35 tournaments a year and we don't.

STPickrell wrote:
Pennsylvania has a state championship of some sort where the finals are held in the state capital (now how cool is that?)


Dwight Kidder was telling me that PA actually is divided into three distinct quiz bowl polarities, with that particular tournament drawing more central PA teams than teams from Pitt or Philly. You're from VA; you're probably more aware of that than I am. :)


STPickrell wrote:
Most of the other states AFAIK have either nothing or a coaches' association run things (Georgia, Indian, North Carolina, Alabama, Louisiana and Ohio have them AFAIK).


From my understanding of things, the Oklahoma coaches association and OSHSAA have a fairly symbiotic relationship, more so than Missouri or Illinois. I'd have to ask Eric Bell about that.


Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:11 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006
Posts: 874
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
PenforPrez wrote:


I played for Cuba in the last MAA State tournament in 1995. We won Class 2 that day, and we had three All-Staters, including myself as a freshman. I have the booklet from that tournament still. :)
1994: Class I: North Shelby over Purdy (405 to 175)
Class II: Bernie over Brookfield (330 to 265)
Class III: Savannah over Ft. Zumwalt South (295 to 285)

1993: Class I: Bernie over North Shelby (305 to 190)
Class II: Mary's Institute/Country Day over St. James (295 to 210)
Class III: Liberty over Ft. Zumwalt South (420 to 210; in the days of Conan and Louis Renfrow at Liberty)

1992: Class I: North Shelby over Palmyra (300 to 210)
Class II: Hannibal over William Chrisman (415 to 230)

Paul,

I did not realize you went to Cuba. My first 3 years of schooling was at Cuba. My mother was the high school librarian, but we moved in 1985.



I also did not realize FZS was good back in the day. That would have been when I was in high school. I went to FHN and we did beat them at some math tournaments, but did not know about scholar quiz then.


Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:34 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006
Posts: 816
Location: Not quite Baltimore. Not quite Washington, D.C.
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
FZW Coach wrote:
I did not realize you went to Cuba. My first 3 years of schooling was at Cuba. My mother was the high school librarian, but we moved in 1985.


Very nice! Yes, I played '95-'98 there. I was the only player to be on all four Cuba state championship teams from that time. To a lot of these kids, that's ancient history! :lol:

FZW Coach wrote:
I also did not realize FZS was good back in the day. That would have been when I was in high school. I went to FHN and we did beat them at some math tournaments, but did not know about scholar quiz then.


Remembering what I can from that distant and foggy time period, Zumwalt South and Howell North were consistently the two best STL teams from the time period I played. I know we played both of them a lot, and they were always good and we almost always beat them.

WCA didn't have a team then, and Priory only came along later. Marquette and Lafayette were really good back then too. SLUH was always at State, but I never count them. I have seen SLUH play in exactly ONE non-District or State tournament in 12 seasons. That was at WUHSAC this year.

My freshman year ('95), there was a guy by the name of Scott Brinker who played for Washington. A lot of you guys will remember Scott from his days of running the college program at Mizzou.

One correction I need to make. Louis Renfrow never coached Liberty. He coached at Raytown for a lot of years.

Excuse me, this old timer needs to go take some Geritol. . . . ^_^


Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:25 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006
Posts: 433
Location: Vienna, VA
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
The FHSAA (Florida's MSHSAA) does not run non-athletic activities (I just checked their website). Now the FHSAA may be a division of the Florida Department of Education or whatever they call it -- and the Florida Department of Education does seem to sponsor something called the Commissioner's Academic Challenge in which each FL county gets to send a team -- they are all grouped according to either population or school enrollment. This seems to be semi-official along the lines of Alabama's or Kentucky's tournament.

The VHSL has a format -- 15 tossups, 10 directed questions with bounceback and 15 tossups -- in case of tie, read tossups until something happens. However the only thing the VHSL will ask is that district and region qualifying tournaments follow the VHSL format/rules. Regular season in the districts can be any format you want as can non-VHSL competition. So we have just about every format known to man in Virginia.

I don't know how the Pennsylvania tournament is organized. Apparently the questions are very bad and the identity of the question writer is kept a secret.


Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:24 pm
Profile YIM

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006
Posts: 433
Location: Vienna, VA
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
PenforPrez wrote:
Excuse me, this old timer needs to go take some Geritol. . . . ^_^

I gradauted Warren County High School (VA of course) in 1993. So let's get these kids off our lawns, dangnabit!


Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:27 pm
Profile YIM

Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004
Posts: 1586
Location: Lincoln, MO
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
How good was Francis Howell North in the 2001-2002 season? Their best player was a certain sheep-loving girl who pulled a coup on me despite only averaging 10 PPG on the B team and getting one tossup in pool play while playing on my team.


Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:30 pm
Profile

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004
Posts: 5401
Location: Gower
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
Bitter much??


Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:47 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004
Posts: 1586
Location: Lincoln, MO
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
I'm not as bitter as I used to be. Also, here's my expanded MSHSAA Sectional system:

1. Districts are played as usual, except the top two teams from each district move into sectional play.
2. There will be two sectionals, divided geographically into the four east districts and the four west districts. Each district champion would play the district runners-up (but would not replay the runner-up from their own district, thus producing three games as is traditional). Likewise, the district runners-up would play the other district champions for their three games. The top four would then play the usual playoffs to determine first through fourth, but all four teams would advance to state. The rationale for this step is that the district champion should have an advantage and is given one by having an easier schedule.
3. At state, the sectional champion would play the #2, #3, and #4 teams from the other sectional; the runner-up would play the #1, #3, and #4 teams from the other sectional; #3 would play the other sectional's #1, #2, and #4; and #4 would play the other sectional's #1, #2, and #3 teams. The top four teams would then go into the traditional playoff for first through fourth. The rationale for this step is to once again reward the higher-placing sectional teams with an easier schedule. Also, this system assures that teams would get to play a diverse variety of schools by adding another tournament's worth of play.

I hope this tournament format helps out the Priories, Smithvilles, and Belles of the world. (Unfortunately, this format would have done nothing for South Shelby or NKC).


Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:13 am
Profile

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006
Posts: 433
Location: Vienna, VA
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
Does it work the same way in football and basketball as for academic competition where only the district winner gets to go and all the second place teams stay at home?

In the VHSL, it's about the same as it is for basketball. About 10 or 15 years ago a coalition of teams stuck in regions with powerhouses got it so two teams from each region went to States. Also the prospect of money-spinning state quarterfinals games was too much to resist. :D

Each of the three groups (1A, 2A, 3A) are divided into four regions; each region has 3 or 4 districts. To minimize or maximize confusion, the regions get different names in each group (A, B, C and D for 1A; I, II, III and IV for 2A; and Northern, Central, Eastern and Northwestern for 3A.) The Districts all get names, too, look on Wikipedia if you really want to know; I set up the VHSL article on there.

So each district figures out how to send two teams to regions, by one of four methods:

(1) Whoever wants to go can go (this is for uninterested districts)
(2) Regular season winner and tournament winner (if they are the same team the runner up of one of the two goes)
(3) Regular season top two
(4) Tournament top two

Then at regions there is some regularity as everything follows the VHSL format and can either be round-robin or double-elim.

The top two teams from each region go on to states, where it is double-elim.


Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:36 pm
Profile YIM

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004
Posts: 5401
Location: Gower
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
Yes in all sports only the district winner moves on..


Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:15 pm
Profile WWW
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004
Posts: 5674
Location: Riding a Mule down the Katy Trail to the State Fair
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
Except Cross Country, Track and Wrestling, but their points are based on individual matches and times.


Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:05 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006
Posts: 1378
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
ScoBo1987 wrote:
Districts that look weak:
Class 1 District 3, 5, 6, and maybe 7
Class 2 Districts 1, 3, and 7
Class 3 Districts 3 & 4
Class 4 District 7 (Districts 1 and 6 in the last couple of years haven't really made too much of a good showing, except for Nixa this year)

Just curious as to why you say Class 3 district 4 is weak?

That's my district, and although the school that wins is usually not a big name at state, my school personally has had one 2nd place and two 4th places. Also, School of the Osage, another strong school from our district, has done well at state.

None of the other schools have been strong, I concede that point. Since I've been involved, anyway, only SotO and we have been to state.


Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:54 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004
Posts: 6322
Location: In between the bright lights and the far unlit unknown (aka Johnson County, KS)
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
I think when I came up with that I went off the fact that you played two not-so-good teams, and this was your first State appearance since 1997, but then again, this was on crappy Avery questions. I didn't bother to look at All-State when I made the list, and it looks like you should do well the next two years.

That list is poorly formulated too... I essentially didn't include district 7 because Lexington has historically done well but not so well in the past few years; but by that same logic, I shouldn't consider District 4 "weak" because of how well Boonville did a few years back. It's a pretty rough list I made up quickly.

I'll break down Class 3 this way, and let me know of any others I forget (or any who shouldn't be on this list)... this is really the way this should have been done in the first place.

Decent or better teams in the past year or two:
1: New Madrid County Central, Notre Dame (Cape Girardeau)
2: Burroughs, Priory, WCA
3: Not really any.
4: South Callaway, Osage(?)
5: Ava
6: El Dorado Springs
7: None...? Lexington has struggled in the past two or three years.
8: Smithville, Savannah

So after looking at it that way, 5 and 6 aren't on my first list just because of one strong team in recent years. 5 has been historically decent with Salem and Strafford; Strafford's program seemed to only flourish when Joe Kellogg was there (now here at UMR), and I have no idea about Salem. In regards to District 4, it looks like South Callaway will do well the next two years. Historically, Osage has made it to state 4 times, but their record is 3-9 and they haven't ever placed.


Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:01 am
Profile WWW
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006
Posts: 4134
Location: Columbia, MO
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
Also, you guys at South Callaway aren't in what I would call a powerful district so there's not anywhere near as much attention payed to your district.


Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:41 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006
Posts: 1378
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
Thanks for the clarification, I just wasn't sure on what you were basing your decision on. I agree, this is not a tough district to win. And, I agree, that historically, Osage, Boonville, and SC are the only teams that have done anywhere near well at state since its establishment...considering if Osage has been 4 times, we have been 3, and Boonville has been at least once, that makes 8 out of the ten years that one of those schools has won C3 D4.


Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:19 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004
Posts: 6322
Location: In between the bright lights and the far unlit unknown (aka Johnson County, KS)
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
Well, Boonville may not have been in C3 D4 then since they change them every 2 years. This upcoming year will see changed districts.

Did I mention what teams could be moving up/down a class yet? I figured it out back in April but decided to wait until after State.


Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:24 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004
Posts: 5401
Location: Gower
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
only a hill


Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:42 pm
Profile WWW
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004
Posts: 6322
Location: In between the bright lights and the far unlit unknown (aka Johnson County, KS)
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
East Buc & UMR wrote:
only a hill

Of course.


Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:05 pm
Profile WWW
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006
Posts: 816
Location: Not quite Baltimore. Not quite Washington, D.C.
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
ScoBo1987 wrote:
So after looking at it that way, 5 and 6 aren't on my first list just because of one strong team in recent years. 5 has been historically decent with Salem and Strafford; Strafford's program seemed to only flourish when Joe Kellogg was there (now here at UMR), and I have no idea about Salem.


Salem has always been a hot and cold team. Their state championship a few years ago was not the first time they were dominant. When I started playing, Salem had a kid by the name of Brett Tolman who ranked with the Wehrmans in stats. He was amazing. Salem went to State in '94 and '95 with him, but they were always beaten by the more balanced teams. He never played after HS; he went to Cal Tech, I think.

Other than those two periods, I never recall seeing Salem even playing anywhere. They never go to Cuba's tournaments, that I'm aware of.


Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:34 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004
Posts: 5401
Location: Gower
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
They went to Wash U this past season... and have been to UMR's in the past


Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:42 pm
Profile WWW
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006
Posts: 4134
Location: Columbia, MO
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
WHAT IS THIS F*CKING BULLSH*T ABOUT MISSOURI TEAMS NOT ATTENDING NATIONALS UNTIL AFTER SCHOOL IS DONE! THAT IS THE MOST RETARDED RULE I HAVE SEEN IN A LONG TIME!

[Just so you know I'm talking about the new MACA newsletter]


Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:12 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004
Posts: 6322
Location: In between the bright lights and the far unlit unknown (aka Johnson County, KS)
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
From page 4:
Quote:
Placement of Captain.
It was agreed upon that there is no requirement as to where the captain, or any team member, sits during competition.


Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:22 am
Profile WWW
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006
Posts: 4134
Location: Columbia, MO
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
That made me giggle just a bit. I saw the match Liberty v. Ladue and thought "they even bothered to make a rule?" when John got moved. Even so, I honestly just don't think MSHSAA should run Scholar Bowl unless they clean up their act.


Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:37 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004
Posts: 6322
Location: In between the bright lights and the far unlit unknown (aka Johnson County, KS)
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
Saw this too but I had to hurry to class
Quote:
Re-wording Math acceptable answers.
It will now say that "Answers to all calculation questions should be given in simplest form."


I don't think this has been mentioned yet but here is the advisory committee summary from this year's meeting.

I was a little confused by this one:
Quote:
Recommend that the district assignments for academic competition not be released until late January, and that registration for academic competition at the tournament level be disallowed following the release of district assignments, due to academic competition’s use of “equal enrollment breaks.” (Approved)


I wasn't sure what it meant exactly but based on "equal enrollment breaks" I'm assuming that means once district assignments are out if a school hasn't registered to participate in academic competition (i.e. not part of a district) they can't participate in districts (or whatever registering to participate in AC means). Were schools able to register to participate in academic competition after districts were released before?


Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:09 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006
Posts: 874
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
ScoBo1987 wrote:
Saw this too but I had to hurry to class
Quote:
Re-wording Math acceptable answers.
It will now say that "Answers to all calculation questions should be given in simplest form."


I don't think this has been mentioned yet but here is the advisory committee summary from this year's meeting.

I was a little confused by this one:
Quote:
Recommend that the district assignments for academic competition not be released until late January, and that registration for academic competition at the tournament level be disallowed following the release of district assignments, due to academic competition’s use of “equal enrollment breaks.” (Approved)


I wasn't sure what it meant exactly but based on "equal enrollment breaks" I'm assuming that means once district assignments are out if a school hasn't registered to participate in academic competition (i.e. not part of a district) they can't participate in districts (or whatever registering to participate in AC means). Were schools able to register to participate in academic competition after districts were released before?

The answers to math should be in simplest form was my contribution. I know that a few years ago, we actually won a protest because our captain answered the question correctly though not in simplest terms. Obviously if someone is trying to reduce to lowest terms and another person is not worried about it, the other person is buzzing in faster than the "reducer." It seemed ridiculous to me. We can't expect every moderator to know mathematics or take the time to see if the answer given is equal to the reduced answer on the paper. This just brings some more uniformity to the table.



In regards to the registration process, apparently there would always be a few schools that would request a chance to compete at districts after the district assignment was released in December. These few incidents were cited in this discussion. It may have been that a school did not name a coach until after January, realizing that they should probably compete at Districts. Based on my understanding of the topic, it did not happen that often, but did just enough to annoy MSHSAA and all involved.


Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:27 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006
Posts: 4134
Location: Columbia, MO
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
I'm curious also about why in the heck Missouri bans their teams from qualifying for nationals at qualifying tournaments. Is it because they want attention and at the same time want to crush any success and recognition that Missouri teams might have gotten otherwise? Because that's what they're doing. It's a rule that undoubtedly needs to change.


Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:22 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004
Posts: 5674
Location: Riding a Mule down the Katy Trail to the State Fair
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
ashkenaziCD wrote:
I'm curious also about why in the heck Missouri bans their teams from qualifying for nationals at qualifying tournaments. Is it because they want attention and at the same time want to crush any success and recognition that Missouri teams might have gotten otherwise? Because that's what they're doing. It's a rule that undoubtedly needs to change.

MSHSAA's concerned about two things: 1) minimizing time off school, and 2) the possibility of playing for goods, monetary benefits, scholarships, and other recruiting-based incentives. Playing to qualify for a national tournament could be seen under the latter in some Columbia lawyer's eyes.


Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:46 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006
Posts: 4134
Location: Columbia, MO
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
L-Town Expatriate wrote:
MSHSAA's concerned about two things: 1) minimizing time off school, and 2) the possibility of playing for goods, monetary benefits, scholarships, and other recruiting-based incentives. Playing to qualify for a national tournament could be seen under the latter in some Columbia lawyer's eyes.

Okay,
1. Nationals offer absolutely NO monetary benefits (besides Panasonic, which doesn't count anyway) or scholarships. All it really offers is the chance at the honors of being the best team in the nation. I don't understand why MSHSAA wouldn't want one of the schools they govern to prove themselves in such a way. I think that more than anything would be a boon to them.

2. The whole banning our teams from playing until school is out is ridiculous. Here's why:
NAQT national championship winners:
State College, 2000 - they won before their school let out.
Thomas Jefferson in Virginia, 2003, 2004, 2005 - they won each year before their school was out.
Richard Montgomery, 2006 - They won before their school was out.
I'm tempted to say it was the same for Catholic Central when they won in 1999 and 2001.

So time out of school is no valid argument. If this rule were followed everywhere else, then no one would ever win nationals because they are held during dates that often coincide with school.
I want to hear Mr. Gibbs's take because he's the only person actually associated with MSHSAA.


Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:02 pm
Profile

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004
Posts: 5401
Location: Gower
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
Well MSHSAA I don't think cares if you win or not....they care about missing school. Bottom line you go to school to attend class not play quiz bowl


Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:59 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006
Posts: 105
Location: New Haven, CT
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
Hey...I stumbled across this list a couple of days ago, and as someone who was around when MSHSAA took over scholar bowl/quizbowl/academic competition, I think maybe I, as a geezer, can provide some insight.

MSHSAA exists so it can supervise high school sports like football and basketball, and everything else is applied to that model. That's why you can't go to nationals during the school year, travel more than 250 miles outside the state, have tournaments before and after certain dates, and play in more than fourteen tournaments. Academic competition may be first alphabetically on the MSHSAA website, but that's the only time it comes first in MSHSAA's mind. It's not that important. Football doesn't have nationals. Rarely do teams play teams from outside the state or from 50 miles or more away.

These rules make sense to some extent for sports, in that excessive practice and games can lead to declining grades (for many students who already have grade trouble), serious injuries, and undue stress for student-athletes put on by domineering coaches, to name a few examples. Going to lots of tournaments/games also could lead to missed school, since many of them are played on weekdays. Also, kids getting hurt could cause parents to sue schools. Limiting stuff also is seen to level the playing field--no team can get a jump on the competition, at least in theory, by practicing/playing more.

This all makes sense for football or basketball, but not really for academic competition. Injuries are few, students generally make good grades, and traveling to tournaments usually takes place on Saturdays or, at the least, Friday after school is out (not to mention the fact that it's a lot easier for most teams to put four kids and a buzzer set in a van than it is 12 basketball players, uniforms, cheerleaders, etc., in a school bus.)

Of course there are lots of ways football and basketball teams get around this--they can have "optional" classes devoted to weight lifting and playbook studying, summer camps, AAU summer leagues, after school weightroom times/open gyms with not too much coach supervision, etc.

I'm not sure if this is the case, but the sports model MSHSAA follows is responsible for most of the gameplay issues that people found dumb in my day...I don't know if teams still have to switch sides at halftime, but they did at MSHSAA events when I played. Football teams do it, so academic teams do it. Exactly four players are required, not fewer (though there's nothing that really requires all four players.) There was strict recognition by last name even though I shared a last name with my brother. (By the way, the "where the captain should sit" issue was a thing when I played, too. I sat on the end during the second half at the state finals due to extremely bright stage lights shining in my eyes, to the consternation of Kirksville. Rules were consulted, and I could sit on the end.)

It's said that many smaller schools like having MSHSAA around because it levels the playing field. I've heard that some schools only participate because MSHSAA is a sponsor. I believe there are more teams playing now than before MSHSAA existed, but whether this is really because of MSHSAA or not, I don't really know.

While some teams in Kansas City might play 70-100+ matches during a season including districts and state (like we did at Northtown when I played, we were something like 106-3 my senior season), some teams from other parts of the state play as few as 10, maybe a tournament here and there, and a few varsity matches against local rivals. I remember some teams listing their records as 11-3 or 15-4, and stuff like that in the state program. My senior year we went to, I believe, the maximum number of tournaments (at least close to it), including travel to Iowa, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Tennessee (we would have gone farther afield had we been allowed to do so and also gone to ASCN nationals in Chicago my junior and senior years. We went when I was a sophomore...Savannah continued going to Chicago after MSHSAA took over since they got out of school earlier.)

Most teams in the state don't go to very many events for a number of reasons: budget constraints (to get around some of this players at Northtown, not to mention Mr. Allen, generally paid for food and lodgings out of their own or their parents' pockets), coaches coaching/players participating in other activities, and simple lack of interest on the part of players and/or coaches. Because of this, lots of teams that don't go to many events like the fact that MSHSAA curbs participation by "big city" or "rich" schools. Most schools don't place a lot of emphasis on academic competition, and having MSHSAA around helps keep other teams from doing too much.

It could be much worse than it is. I think if MSHSAA really had its way, a schedule not unlike track or some other sports would be the norm--i.e. an even shorter season, a tournament or two, plus 10 or so home/away games with local schools.

Dedicated coaches and members of the state coaches' association have worked very hard to keep academic competition at least somewhat defined on its own terms, not entirely by sports. Tournaments don't count as multiple games, and a tournament such as Quads in the KC area taking place over multiple weeknights only counts as one tournament (at least this used to be the case). Individual awards at districts and state are given because of the coaches' association (note that no individual stats exist from 1996, MSHSAA's first year--MACA had to petition for the right to give individual awards, as it did before MSHSAA came along). MSHSAA later said it decided to recognize individual accomplishments, but this wouldn't have happened without lobbying by coaches.

Guess I've rambled long enough. But don't expect MSHSAA to change much...there's a silent majority that likes things the way they are.


Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:39 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006
Posts: 4134
Location: Columbia, MO
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
DUDE, IT'S MIKE WEHRMAN! LIKE, THE LEGENDARY MIKE WEHRMAN!


Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:21 pm
Profile

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004
Posts: 5401
Location: Gower
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
contain your self chuck...Also you might want to set your Fantasy football roster before tomorrow.


Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:14 pm
Profile WWW
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004
Posts: 5674
Location: Riding a Mule down the Katy Trail to the State Fair
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
ashkenaziCD wrote:
DUDE, IT'S MIKE WEHRMAN! LIKE, THE LEGENDARY MIKE WEHRMAN!

ImageImageImageImage
I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy!


Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:50 pm
Profile

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006
Posts: 433
Location: Vienna, VA
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
From Virginia. I speak solely as a private citizen and not as a representative of some sort of the VHSL.

When some coaches complained about Thomas Jefferson and Maggie Walker, I remember it was pointed out that Frank Cox wins lots of field hockey titles, Grundy and Great Bridge won lots of wrestling titles, and Hampton won lots of football titles. The point being that these programs worked hard, practiced in the offseason as allowed by VHSL rules, etc., etc. So too do TJ and MW work hard.

Richard Montgomery is, IIRC, a general enrollment school although they might have a minor magnet program -- the real magnet school in Montgomery County, MD, (they vote twice so you don't have to) is Montgomery-Blair. While MB was dominant in the 1980s, their glory days are behind them, relatively speaking.

If we take a look at, for example, Whitney Young (a super-powerful Chicago magnet seen in the movie Cheaters) then we find that they get eliminated in the FIRST round of REGIONALS (the first tier of Illinois competition.)

The VHSL exempts academic activities from many of the restrictions placed on sports. Among these are participation in an unlimited number of outside competitions, allowing 8th graders in the feeder middle school to play varsity and the such.

It might be possible to organize some sort of multi-sport coalition to get around the travel restrictions. I'd imagine, for example, that some of the top basketball teams might want to play in the Arby's Classic in Bristol, Tennessee, for example. Also, I'm sure that some wrestling or baseball teams might want to embark on a tour of the sunny parts of this great nation during the Christmas or Spring breaks.

As for gameplay issues:
* Switching sides at halftime should not be required. However, some coaches might want to blame being on the "slow" side of the buzzers for their loss. So I don't see a problem with humoring coaches if they wish to make a side chagne. Also if there are lighting issues or issues where one team can see a list of Presidents or a periodic table that happens to be hanging in the room, I don't see a problem with letting that happen.
* Recognition might be a throwback to a very early era when buzzer systems were not so reliable, or when many models did not have the convenient light in front of the player. Also, recognition would make the game easier to follow for a spectator.
* The captain should be able to sit wherever he wants as long as he or she is clearly identified to the game officials. I know in IHSA play, teams will frequently "huddle up" and during the VHSL team round, the team will move their desks to facilitate communication. I'm not 100% sure what benefit there is from having the captain in the middle. I'd probably favor for myself being on the end so I wouldn't have to turn my head both ways to get input from my teammates.

I think that MSHSAA sponsorship is invaluable. I know that participation and interest in academic competition has increased in Virginia due to VHSL sponsorship. Perhaps 90% of VHSL member schools field a team in the Scholastic Bowl.

If the MSHSAA were convinced to create a Director position specifically for academic activities, this would work as well. The VHSL will typically have one Assistant Director position in charge of activities, and two Assistant Directors splitting the sports between themselves.

As for enrollment -- well, the VHSL has fixed districts and regions for every sport. As a fan, I rather like the stability this provides, on the other hand, it makes biennial redistricting somewhat ... entertaining.

Well, enough of *this* geezer rambling. I've talked to some coaches in Illinois so I have learned a bit about what goes on there. If the MSHSAA sees something working for the IHSA or VHSL, this could potentially be used by supporters as evidence that a proposed change won't break the system.

Well enough from *this* geezer. If any coaches or other readers of this message have further issues to talk about please let me know via email. I will of course have to ask permission from the VHSL to speak ex cathedra on an issue. But I can provide "under the hood" assistance.

Finally, I am not sure if I issued my congratulations on Missouri's fine performance at Panasonic, including a finish ahead of Virginia.


Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:14 pm
Profile YIM
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006
Posts: 4134
Location: Columbia, MO
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
As a member of Missouri's PAC team, I thank you very much (what a helluva game. I'm ecstatic because now I can say I've beaten TJ and State College.)

==Edit==
I've found out that State College was not their full A-team at Panasonic. TJ was also helped by two Maggie Walker players. Either way I would never have a chance of beating them in ever again in my life because they are scary good.


Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:44 am
Profile

Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006
Posts: 105
Location: New Haven, CT
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
just a reply to Shawn...things in Virginia seem to work much differently. VHSL apparently doesn't place quizbowl teams under any of the restrictions MSHSAA places on them.

I really don't know what about MSHSAA sponsorship is "invaluable." Does anyone care about MSHSAA other than MSHSAA itself or those who could be punished by the organization? Is it a branded commodity that attracts outside interest like the NCAA? Would a fan of any such activity scoff if MSHSAA didn't sponsor an event?

MSHSAA is simply a Missouri umbrella organization made for sports and run by sports administrators that latched onto an already healthy non-sports group and then applied its sports model to it, limiting the activities of teams that had previously not been under such restrictions. It's really easy to place restrictions on people, but it's much more difficult to get them revoked.

As someone observing mainly from out of state since the onset of MSHSAA, what I've observed is that fewer Missouri teams travel out of state to tournaments and fewer Missouri teams compete at national competitions. In an era where academic competition is growing nationally, Missouri is lagging behind.

The activity may be growing within the state of Missouri, but I don't know how much is due to MSHSAA. St. Louis has more teams now, which is nice, but are they only around because the activity is sponsored by MSHSAA? Does MSHSAA provide publicity? Or are there other factors? Many schools have activities that are not MSHSAA sponsored, including those that compete against other schools--chess clubs, science olympiad, math teams, etc.

The only positive thing I've heard about MSHSAA is, "At least we're not in Kansas." The Kansas activities association is apparently even more restrictive.

While the Panasonic team has been a success, this has nothing to do with MSHSAA.


Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:30 pm
Profile

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004
Posts: 5401
Location: Gower
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
I remember when MSHSAA was going to add a new state title for a fall mens sport. It was down to fall baseball and 8man football. 8-man won, and since then fall baseball has been lagging behind. On the flip side schools are adding 8-man. 8-man used to be a NWMO thing and just this season is moving into east and central Missouri.

Being a MSHSAA event is a big thing. Some of the highlights, every school but one (missouri military academy) is a MSHSAA school. Quiz bowl doesn't need to make money, some of the larger sports can support quiz bowl. Last but not least promotion. MSHSAA not only hold summits which they promote several events, but they also send each school flyers on what is going on in the state. Be it tournament or rule changes etc. As for STL and springfield (and starting in St. Joe) getting quiz bowl. I would think it is 50% MSHSAA, and 50% coaches coming in from programs where they played or were teachers at other schools that had quiz bowl.

With all the bad things MSHSAA has done with Quiz Bowl the good things out wiegh them 10 fold.


Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:50 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006
Posts: 105
Location: New Haven, CT
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
So the good things are sending out flyers and sort of (maybe) influencing the growth of quizbowl in some areas?


Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:56 pm
Profile

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004
Posts: 5401
Location: Gower
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
They spread the word to schools that don't have a program better than any other group could possibly dream. I'm going to go out on a limb and say 99% of the HS in the state know about quiz bowl thanks to MSHSAA. Which to me out wieghs the rules MSHSAA has right now. With as good as the state is turning into it won't be long coaches start asking in a larger group to change some of the rules. Like expanding the number of tournaments, being able to travel etc.

MSHSAA does listen to its member schools and if there was enough people that wanted something changed it would happen. My guess is for every Savannah and NKC that wants more tournaments and more travel, there is 5-10 schools that don't. Dealing with schools for the past 4 years, it is clear some coaches could care less, other coaches would do something just to spite a succesful program.

So in short MSHSAA has done wonders for Quiz Bowl. They listen to its members. The people this thread should be attacking is half-ass schools and coaches who like to go with the norm.


Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:23 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006
Posts: 105
Location: New Haven, CT
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
Bill, I don't really know you. By all accounts, you seem to be a pretty good guy, but I think you're very wrong regarding MSHSAA. Maybe I should respond to this point by point.

Quote:
They spread the word to schools that don't have a program better than any other group could possibly dream. I'm going to go out on a limb and say 99% of the HS in the state know about quiz bowl thanks to MSHSAA.


Uh huh. Did MSHSAA spread the word that basketball was a sport you could play, too? Is that why my high school has a team? Did hearing about MSHSAA's noble actions cause quizbowl teams to form in other states without a MSHSAA equivalent? That's a pretty thin limb you're standing on, Bill. What you're saying is that prior to MSHSAA's involvement only 7 high schools had teams. Yeah. Tournaments in many parts of the state have been around for at least 15 to 20 years.

Quote:
With as good as the state is turning into it won't be long coaches start asking in a larger group to change some of the rules. Like expanding the number of tournaments, being able to travel etc.


These rules have been in place for over 10 years now, and I don't think they'll change. Teams from Missouri high schools have been absent from the national scene for several years now, and this is thanks to MSHSAA. Some of Missouri's smartest young people are becoming more and more isolated. Sports teams have protested the 250-mile policy as well.

Quote:
MSHSAA does listen to its member schools and if there was enough people that wanted something changed it would happen. My guess is for every Savannah and NKC that wants more tournaments and more travel, there is 5-10 schools that don't. Dealing with schools for the past 4 years, it is clear some coaches could care less, other coaches would do something just to spite a succesful program.


Yeah, MSHSAA listens to its member schools...then why have people been complaining the last 10+ years? Did they hear a great chant of "Travel restrictions, travel restrictions, travel restrictions!" from quizbowl players and coaches? Or, did MSHSAA just place its sports rules on the activity despite protests from teams that actually knew anything about the activity MSHSAA was about to sponsor? Maybe people negatively affected by MSHSAA's rules don't complain very much because they fear they might be given sanctions by a petty "voluntary" organization.

The reason MSHSAA took over quizbowl (this was the case at my school) is because school administrators/activities directors with little or no exposure to academic competition recommended that MSHSAA take over what was already a widespread activity. It made things slightly easier for them.

Quote:
So in short MSHSAA has done wonders for Quiz Bowl. They listen to its members. The people this thread should be attacking is half-ass schools and coaches who like to go with the norm.


Yeah, it is stupid that people think the restrictions MSHSAA "provides" are beneficial to non-sports activities. It is sad that coaches and schools would rather hinder other teams than help themselves. Still, most of the blame lies with MSHSAA, an organization that supposedly looks out for students' best interests.

Only if MSHSAA provided all the benefits that you say it provides--without the drawbacks--would I think it was doing its job well. MSHSAA likes having control and power even though it doesn't really do anything...does the organization train game officials like in sports? No. Does it offer quizbowl-specific coaching clinics? No. Who runs the tournaments MSHSAA "sponsors"? Coaches of the teams, local teachers and parents they can wrangle, and current/former players. Is anyone with familiarity with quizbowl (i.e. a former player or coach) employed by MSHSAA? Not that I know of. MSHSAA sends out emails and flyers advertising academic competition's existence...why didn't anyone think of that before? Why couldn't they do that without trying to regulate and restrict an activity they knew nothing (and still likely know very little) about?

The fine folks at MSHSAA do give out state-shaped trophies, which are kinda cool. That's one thing they've got going for them.


Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:00 am
Profile

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005
Posts: 101
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
I must say I agree with the Mike on this one... (I know I don't know you, but I still feel inclined to use first names) MSHSAA is a gigantic black hole of public money. While I can admit that central organization is very practical for interscholastic events of all kinds, it also presents a lot of problems that I despised as a player. Before even addressing those problems... who gave MSHSAA the authority to govern state sports? It is a monopoly. It is not a government institution though it might as well be. (And we complain about Haliberton?)
Now addressing a couple of things: Why should teams that really care about quiz bowl and want to compete against the toughest of competition have to care what lousy teams with coaches that don't put forth any effort think? They shouldn't. Utilitarian democracy is only beneficial when the majority has a stake in the vote. Honestly, what difference does it make to West Platte if restrictions are increased or lifted in quiz bowl? It doesn't make any difference, because they don't care about quiz bowl. Would someone from St. Louis County care who was voted county clerk in Andrew County? NO! It makes no difference to them, so they shouldn't care. Ultimately, MSHSAA doesn't care about quiz bowl. They couldn't care less about individual players in any sport for that matter. They are a faceless and inhuman money machine. The reason they chose 14 as an arbitrary number of tournaments is because they could. They like to throw around their power simply because they have it. Ultimately, MSHSAA sucks. In fact they suck a lot. Further, I think it would be more constructive to make a thread devoted to the suckiness of MSHSAA simply for the sake of taking out some angst, than to petition them as they don't care and will not budge if it won't yield them with a significant return. MSHSAA sucks. Another idea that would be more active, and yet equally useless would be to teepee the MSHSAA hq. That would be sweet. When in doubt, a balanced combo of immaturity and apathy prevails.


Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:37 pm
Profile

Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004
Posts: 535
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
George Clooney wrote:
Ultimately, MSHSAA sucks. In fact they suck a lot. Further, I think it would be more constructive to make a thread devoted to the suckiness of MSHSAA simply for the sake of taking out some angst, than to petition them as they don't care and will not budge if it won't yield them with a significant return. MSHSAA sucks. Another idea that would be more active, and yet equally useless would be to teepee the MSHSAA hq. That would be sweet. When in doubt, a balanced combo of immaturity and apathy prevails.

wow, college has loosened someone up a LOT.


Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:41 am
Profile WWW

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004
Posts: 5401
Location: Gower
Post How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?
College loosese alot of people up...mostly girls


Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:45 am
Profile WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 129 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Forum style by STSoftware for PTF.
Translated by Maël Soucaze © 2010 phpBB.fr