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How about a unified MSHSAA complaint thread?

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:54 pm

Here's an idea I've gotten from reading some of the earlier posts about MSHSAA and seeing everyone's complaints, along with complaints I've already had before. Why don't we make a unified complaint thread and then, taking all the reasonable complaints, see if we can take it a step farther (either to the coaches or to MSHSAA or somthing). Also, because the Avery Questions guy seems to know of this board and has posted comments on his questions, let's see if we can also make a good rebuttal (there were a couple of things he said that we could really tear apart). I figure since summer's nearing the end (NOOOOOO) that we should get this ball rolling so it's in full swing by the time competitions start, so maybe we could have a slight effect. (maybe?). Anyway, it might be worth a shot.
So vent, everyone

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Post by L-Town Expatriate » Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:14 pm

I don't see MSHSAA reading this board. However, there are two Advisory Committee memebrs that post here on occasion. However, they meet once a year in June.

From conversations I heard at state, coaches are already sick of Avery's significantly varying difficulty and are likely to pick someone else after this year.

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Post by Charlie Dees » Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:36 pm

I didn't necessarily mean have MSHSAA read the thread. I was thinking more on the lines of having a bunch of people complain, and then once we have a bunch of stuff put it in some kind of document (although they have to be reasonable complaints, not just "oh boo hoo we never win districts so we're gonna blame that on MSHSAA").
Do you know who actually picks the questions? Because NAQT is the way to go, even if it's modified for state format.

Now to my thoughts: State should really be a larger tournament. I think either they should make twelve or sixteen districts. Also, someone in mshsaa should really structure districts so that nowhere is weak and nowhere is too strong. (Ahem class 4 district 7 for example of weak, because if either Truman or Oak Park were in it they would have won hands down. Too strong=Class 1 whatever Mound City/Tarkio is, also NKC v Liberty in district 8). If someone really wanted to know (although I doubt it) I could lay out every way I would restructure state to extend it, because 5 rounds is not enough. I have a bunch else to say, but I'm kinda tired and this is too long already.

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Post by L-Town Expatriate » Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:40 pm

MSHSAA is supposedly guided solely by geography and population, but some pairing can seem downright capricious at times, and not just in quiz bowl.

Bill, you'll probably explain what all's been discussed better than I. Jump in.

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Post by Jeffrey Hill » Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:28 am

From what I remember being argued against a longer State tournament, anything longer would make for a very long day and might have to be split into two days. I'd also like to see State be a bigger event, but there's only so much you can do to involve more teams before it becomes too much for both the workers and players.

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Post by East Buc & UMR » Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:28 am

Yeah with the state tournament anything longer wouldn't work. Right now some teams complain how long it is.

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Post by FZW Coach » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:42 am

We are looking for possible question writers for 2008. NAQT was discussed (assuming they would format the questions to fit Missouri style). If, or your coach, has question examples or question writers, you can submit those to MSHSAA c/o Stacy Schroeder. I believe the final decision on those will be made next June at the Advisory Board meeting.

As far as expanding State, that is an idea. I don't see it happening, but it is an interesting idea.

When I was in high school, I competed in Bible Quiz on a national level. When I competed, there were 8 regions (each consisting of 8 districts). You had to finish 1st or 2nd in your district to advance to regionals. Then, you had to finish 1st or 2nd in your region to advance to nationals. It took quite a bit of work to make it to nationals. Few teams were able to consistently make it. After high school, they expanded the structure and took the top 3 teams from each district and top 5 teams from each region. It definately watered things down as any good team knew they would make it to nationals. I think what we have here is pretty appropriate. It would be interesting (if we had the workers and time) to expand to two teams from each district. It would water things down, though. (We certainly would not have been worried about making it to state if we knew two teams would be advancing). As it is, it is a huge honor just to make it to state. Expanding it would surely mean the good teams would make it no matter what. Liberty is the only team in Class 4 who has made it the last three years. That is very impressive! If the field was expanded, there would have been several schools saying the same thing.

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Post by Charlie Dees » Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:23 am

I'm glad that you're (even remotely) considering the extended state, but from experience I'd say that while picking the top 2 teams in each district sounds perfectly reasonable, it's actually better just to increase the number of districts, because that way seeding doesn't matter.
My example is that in our district we got the hardest draw in the morning (Oak Park and Liberty). We beat Oak Park but lost to Liberty. Then because Oak Park and Truman got much easier draws, the semifinals were seeded
1. Liberty
2. Truman
3. Oak Park
4. NKC
We had to play Liberty in the semis, and we were eliminated, and Oak Park made the final, but we were actually the better team, and if the two-best-teams-advance rule were in place, we would have been knocked out because of bad draws and seeding. Instead, if you were to increase the number of districts, it would be whoever won fair and square in each district.
Also, someone needs to do something about Class 4 District 7. Talk about cushy.

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Post by Jeffrey Hill » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:01 am

ashkenaziCD wrote: I'm glad that you're (even remotely) considering the extended state, but from experience I'd say that while picking the top 2 teams in each district sounds perfectly reasonable, it's actually better just to increase the number of districts, because that way seeding doesn't matter.
Actually, if the number of districts were doubled, it would put around 5 or 6 teams in each district. Then they might be able to do a round robin format instead so that each team plays each other. But then you have the exciting task of getting twice as many schools to host.

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Post by Charlie Dees » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:09 am

Hypothetically:
12 districts sounds like a good number. 12 teams advance to state, play the 3 prelims, then 8 teams go to quarterfinals.

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Post by Jeffrey Hill » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:16 am

Whatever they do, they definitely need to Swiss-pair the prelims. With 12 teams that won't be as bad although you would have in the third round a 2-0 vs. 1-1 and a 1-1 vs 0-3 game. With 16 teams you'd have 2 3-0, 6 2-1, 6 1-2, 2 0-3; with the teams with at least two wins advancing. I think Swiss pairing would also be better at districts if there are too many teams for round robin.

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Post by East Buc & UMR » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:39 am

swiss pair is the way to go, and something tells me if it was used in district we wouldn't need to split up into more districts.

I'm not sure if Mshsaa has the people to run a tournament with twice the number of teams. Right now the reading is hit or miss. Also Rock bridge as big as it is, I'm not sure there is room for anymore teams.

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Post by Charlie Dees » Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:29 pm

I understand what you're saying about MSHSAA not having staff etc., but there are other states have humongeous state tournaments compared to us. If they can do it, I don't see any reason why we can't also. And I think it's silly for coaches to complain about the tournament being too long already. If they don't want to spend time in order to win, then why bother coming. Every tournament I've been to is longer.

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Post by LibertyMarie » Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:20 pm

Not a lot of other tournaments have to compete with various proms, though...*shrug* that's just an aspect of a longer tournament that some students would have issues with.

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Post by Charlie Dees » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:06 pm

Wow, Liberty must have a late prom. NKC's was on the same day as districts this year. (Not that I could go, but I wouldn't really want. Our school newspaper printed "look at the good times" type pictures of people grinding like they were in private. I was laughing so hard)

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Post by East Buc & UMR » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:24 pm

Well from NKC to columbia is that bad of a drive.... Some schools from NEMO, SEMO south central MO and SWMO have 5-6 hour drives (longer if they take a bus) That means after a dinner stop they will get back home 10-11 after waking up at 7 or so. Frankly even if you win that is a very long day.

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Post by L-Town Expatriate » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:38 pm

6 hours from Clark County? Right... considering Boone County's in Truman's old district.

As for a larger tournament, I agree that it'd be nice, but the games would have to be shorter, the tournaments might have to be split into two weekends (1&2 one weekend, 3&4 the next) and/or over two days. Another thing to consider is perhaps factor in four wildcards for second-place teams (decided by record, points scored, and points allowed), or factor in a sectional.

One sectional would comprise of the top four teams from each two districts (Ergo, four sectionals per class.) After seven round robin games, the top two teams from a district, determined by W-L, head-to-head, and points, would advance to state. This would weed out weak districts.

No, I've never been to Joe Bill Dixon's camp.

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Post by East Buc & UMR » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:55 pm

my bad that was supposed to be a NWMO

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Post by Charlie Dees » Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:04 pm

East Buc & UMR wrote: Well from NKC to columbia is that bad of a drive.... Some schools from NEMO, SEMO south central MO and SWMO have 5-6 hour drives (longer if they take a bus) That means after a dinner stop they will get back home 10-11 after waking up at 7 or so. Frankly even if you win that is a very long day.
I did forget that for the most part we have a direct highway, but even so, saying you're a state champion could definitely be worth a 5 hour drive. Winning UMR's spring was worth an overnight, waking up before dawn, then a return home well after midnight. But maybe I'm spoiled.

I would love a way to weed out weak districts... but having a sectionals would probably end up being too much, especially since it sucks another competition day away (which is a restriction that just needs to be done away with).

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Post by East Buc & UMR » Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:11 pm

Why did you wake up before dawn?.... Outside of TJ and mound city name me a team in the past few years from the extremes of the state that have won?

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Post by Jeffrey Hill » Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:20 pm

ashkenaziCD wrote: I would love a way to weed out weak districts... but having a sectionals would probably end up being too much, especially since it sucks another competition day away (which is a restriction that just needs to be done away with).
Not sure if this is what you meant, but Districts and State don't count toward the 14 tournament limit.

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Post by Charlie Dees » Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:27 pm

I read something to the effect that districts DO count, but state doesn't.

We woke up before dawn because we all had to be hygenic and also eat before the tournament. Plus Mr. Allen's alarm woke me up (but that was probably at 4:30)

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Post by Jeffrey Hill » Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:49 pm

ashkenaziCD wrote:I read something to the effect that districts DO count, but state doesn't.
Section 4.E wrote:Students enrolled in grades nine through twelve shall participate in no more than fourteen interscholastic academic competitions during the school year, exclusive of MSHSAA district and state competition.

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Post by Charlie Dees » Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:58 pm

ScoBo1987 wrote: Students enrolled in grades nine through twelve shall participate in no more than fourteen interscholastic academic competitions during the school year, exclusive of MSHSAA district and state competition.
That makes me want to sing "Goodies" by Ciara.

just b/c u drive a benz im NOT goin home witchu, u WONT get no nookie or the cookies im no rookie
THAT is a classic

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Post by S.C.Mitchell07 » Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:30 pm

Have Classes 1-2 on a Wednesday, classes 3-4 Thursday. This needs to be implemented before another school gets screwed by scheduling prom in advance and conflicting with a State Tourny. Actually, It'd be nice most State Tournies were in competition when school year had ended for most.

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Post by Jeffrey Hill » Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:43 pm

S.C.Mitchell07 wrote: Have Classes 1-2 on a Wednesday, classes 3-4 Thursday. This needs to be implemented before another school gets screwed by scheduling prom in advance and conflicting with a State Tourny. Actually, It'd be nice most State Tournies were in competition when school year had ended for most.
Could but probably not too good of an idea with some schools possibly having finals and such, let alone missing school in the first place (yes sports do it all the time...).

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Post by Charlie Dees » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:04 pm

S.C.Mitchell07 wrote: Have Classes 1-2 on a Wednesday, classes 3-4 Thursday. This needs to be implemented before another school gets screwed by scheduling prom in advance and conflicting with a State Tourny. Actually, It'd be nice most State Tournies were in competition when school year had ended for most.
Unfortunately, MSHSAA will never voluntarily schedule anything during school. They can't really schedule state any later in the year for legit reasons though (testing, school being out is an inconvenience for almost anyone, nationals would be around then, and winning state should let you qualify for a national tournament which would be way too quick to decide). Also I think it should be noted that MO has one of the latest state championships every year. A lot of other states have championships in March or so and then they have regular tournaments for the rest of the year.

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Post by PenforPrez » Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:47 pm

Bit of a random thought here. The problem with getting MSHSAA to do ANYTHING is the fact that they prefer to exist in a little plastic bubble where everything is as they want it to be. Must be nice to live in la la land! This is simply my opinion; your judgment may vary.

This gets more obvious to me every year. When I talked to Stacey Schroeder at State this year, she led me to believe that MSHSAA seriously thinks that their counterparts run quiz bowl in every state. Uh, NO! Maybe I read too much in what she was saying, but that was how I interpreted it.

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Post by FZW Coach » Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:03 am

Let's talk expansion.


It sounds interesting, but is it even legitimate? We can't even get teams to compete in districts. Why should we allow more teams to advance to state?

I do not have all the numbers on this (would love to), but why is it that in our sport people do not show up for districts feeling they cannot win? You do not see this in any other sport. I brought up this issue at the Advisory Board this past year. We have a weird sport where coaches do not even see the validity of showing up for districts (the FOCUS of our entire year). This does not even begin to take into account lack of knowledge of rules by coaches and officials or lack of support by school officials. I keep asking this question of my school, "If we win the same awards as our other sports, why are we not a sport?" I am slowly convincing my principal to see us as that, but I still have a long way to go. That is just one school. I am not even close in the other 11 schools in my district let alone the other schools in St. Louis or Missouri.

Two stories:
1. Last year we had 11 of the 12 teams show up for districts. The one team (Francis Howell North) did not show up because they stopped competing halfway through the year believing they were terrible (sadly enough, that is my alma madre). It was the first time we hosted and most schools were excited they did not have to drive 2 hours to Hannibal (since most schools in the district are in the outskirts of St. Louis). This year we only had 7 schools. One school canceled the night before realizing most of their players were taking the ACT and some sending the message "we can't beat you anyway."
2. The district consisting of Parkway Central and Ladue has had a very difficult time getting schools to show up for districts. In the Jimmy Li era, most schools felt there was no point to getting whipped by them and they always had low numbers.

If we can't even get schools to show up for districts, how can we advocate expanding state just because there are some good schools left out?

By the way, I would love to know some of the numbers on the lower classes. That is one of the problems with talking expansion - you would have to do this for all classes.


It is true there are some good schools that get the raw end of the deal and have a tougher district than others. However, they do redistrict every two years hoping to fix this problem (at least to some degree). Most people probably do not know how good Francis Howell Central has been this past year. They actually finished one slot above us at 4 straight tournaments including Two Saints (St. Charles and St. Louis County schools), Washington, Warrenton, and Gateway Athletic Conference (St. Charles County schools). We beat them only twice all year - the first game when they were missing two starters - and districts. It is true that stories similar to NKC do happen around the state.

The advantage of only one team advancing from the district is that you know you are getting the best team. I agree with you, Charles, that having more than one advance, would raise seeding issues. Last year, we lost to Washington in the morning at GAC (but we were clearly the two best teams). We went in ranked #4 and had to play them again. This time we defeated them and went on to win GACs.

More districts . . . . hmmm . . . . how many districts do other sports have?

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Post by East Buc & UMR » Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am

here is the difference with missing school.

If the basketball team makes it to state... for class 1,2,3 that is games thursday-saturday. The entire school is looking foward to it so not much going on that week. Where AC you make it to state most of your classmates don't care, and most of your teacher don't either

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Post by PenforPrez » Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:04 pm

S.C.Mitchell07 wrote: Also I think it should be noted that MO has one of the latest state championships every year. A lot of other states have championships in March or so and then they have regular tournaments for the rest of the year.
Yes, but MSHSAA forbids any other competition after Districts in early April, so we lose nearly all of that time period to every other state anyway. I think that's nuts, personally.
FZW Coach wrote:It is true there are some good schools that get the raw end of the deal and have a tougher district than others. However, they do redistrict every two years hoping to fix this problem (at least to some degree).
MSHSAA redistricting ignores the sad fact that most of the good teams are clustered in certain spots.

Savannah comes to mind here. When MSHSAA took over in '95-'96, Savannah was made 4A, and they got stuck in the same District as NKC, which had the Wehrmans then. Savannah was always #2 in the state, but they could never get past Mike or Andy. Then Savannah got put into 3A; end of story.

One other problem is that State and Districts have ALWAYS been done that way. MSHSAA does it the exact same way that the old MAA did before MSHSAA took over now over a decade ago. But that was before dozens and dozens of teams formed after the fact.

I, for one, say why can't we just have the second place team go to State also? Or even the 3rd place team? There's ALWAYS those heartbreaker District finals that teams lose on the last question, and any other time, that team might not have lost. I can see obvious pros and cons to that, but it's a thought.

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Post by Charlie Dees » Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:19 pm

I would be fine with sending 2 teams from each district if we maybe did districts as pool play instead of elimination.

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Post by PenforPrez » Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:31 pm

I think we'd have to have a slightly different round format for pool play to work at Districts.

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Post by East Buc & UMR » Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:37 pm

believe it or not the format we have now is great for what it does.... Makes the best team in the state the champion....

Sure some districts may have a couple of good teams...but how often does a title game happen in districts?

The way we have now is just fine by me no need to water down the state tournament. For every good district that sends two teams 3-4 bad districts will also send more bad teams.

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Post by L-Town Expatriate » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:52 pm

East Buc & UMR wrote: believe it or not the format we have now is great for what it does.... Makes the best team in the state the champion....

Sure some districts may have a couple of good teams...but how often does a title game happen in districts?

The way we have now is just fine by me no need to water down the state tournament. For every good district that sends two teams 3-4 bad districts will also send more bad teams.
Which is why I suggested round-robin sectionals. Top two from four sectionals advance. It's rare to see neighboring districts each have more than one strong and well-rounded team.

Otherwise I agree. Weak districts make a cushier prelim for some state contenders.

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Post by FZW Coach » Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:38 am

Sectionals is an interesting idea.

In class 4, I assume the 3 St. Louis districst along with the Southeast district would make the most sense. Based on this year's results, that would have consisted of FZW, Ladue, SLUH, and Cape - Central.


I honestly do not know which teams would advance with that format. We lost to SLUH at Wash U, beat Cape - Central by just 5 at state, beat Ladue in the morning and could not hold on to a 90 point halftime lead in the playoffs.

At least for class 4, it is certainly possible the same four would have finished in the final four at state.

It is interesting . . .

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Post by Charlie Dees » Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:49 am

Wait, that list above. Is it a prediction for state next year, or is it just "who would play in a sectional?"

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Post by L-Town Expatriate » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:23 pm

FZW Coach wrote: Sectionals is an interesting idea.

In class 4, I assume the 3 St. Louis districst along with the Southeast district would make the most sense. Based on this year's results, that would have consisted of FZW, Ladue, SLUH, and Cape - Central.
The districts would have to be renumbered, as districts 5 and 6 are at opposite points of the state. Blue Springs, South, and maybe Smith-Cotton would have to be reassigned to D7, NEMO gets paired with a St. Louis district, and the SW district would trek to another St. Louis district.

Based on current districts:
1-2
3-6
4-5
7-8

But it's not really that simple... which is why MSHSAA won't exert any effort to even attempt it. But it's certainly worth pushing.

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Post by FZW Coach » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:02 pm

Charles,

I was just thinking out loud. It had nothing to do with next year . . . just thinking about how sectionals would have affected this past year.

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Post by johnboy81918 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:03 pm

ashkenaziCD wrote: I would be fine with sending 2 teams from each district if we maybe did districts as pool play instead of elimination.
Hmm...I wonder why?










:)

Honestly, in our district this year...we played NKC in the semis, and that game ended up being the district championship. Even though Oak Park got second, if we got to send two teams from our district, I know who I'd pick. And it wouldn't be the two teams that got first and second...it'd be the team that got first and a certain other that I've already mentioned in this post.

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Post by S.C.Mitchell07 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:52 pm

FZW Coach wrote: Charles,

I was just thinking out loud.  It had nothing to do with next year . . . just thinking about how sectionals would have affected this past year.
And sectionals are just essentially the State preliminary rounds, except they aren't during the state Tourney., if I understand it right?

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Post by Charlie Dees » Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:01 pm

That's kinda what I'm getting out of this, although I believe it would be with double the teams

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Post by Charlie Dees » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:36 pm

johnboy81918 wrote:
ashkenaziCD wrote: I would be fine with sending 2 teams from each district if we maybe did districts as pool play instead of elimination.
Hmm...I wonder why?










:)
Yeah, I wonder why...










:)
And don't get me wrong people, I'm not ragging on our district winners. Liberty was quite definitely the better team. I just got ticked because we finally beat Oak Park in the morning but they still got a better seed because they didn't play Liberty, so they got that plaque and the recognition in the district. I wouldn't care if there weren't a plaque and the pimping of Oak Park's team.

(I saw people noting that we'd lost to OP before, but here's what happened: We'd tied with them 2 times because of bad moderating/questions. At quads it was because of questions just not being good and we were already worn out plus we got hosed on a fugu fish tossup, and then 3 days later at St. Jo Christian we had a moderator who didn't properly recognize one of our players which the Oak Park team and coach all had a fit over even though they'd already gotten the question wrong, and then they got a bonus "what treaty ended the 7 years war." they answer Paris, which is "right" but we [properly] challenged that b/c you need the year, but the moderator just would not hear it.)

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Post by Jeffrey Hill » Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:12 am

ashkenaziCD wrote: I just got ticked because we finally beat Oak Park in the morning but they still got a better seed because they didn't play Liberty, so they got that plaque and were trumpeting it all over the district news. I wouldn't care if there weren't a plaque and the pimping of Oak Park's team.
Looks like this one is entirely because of the set schedule, and the bye didn't really affect the outcome... It looks like if Park Hill South had shown up Truman probably still would have beaten them and gone 3-0 on their easy schedule, so seeding would have still been the same - unless they did lose one game, then their low scoring would have put them 4th. It doesn't help when you play the #1 and truly #3 team in the prelims, while Truman gets a bye and plays 2 other teams that haven't won any actual game. I don't think I was ever once nervous about the Oak Park game, but in the semifinal against you it was tense throughout the entire game... although how do you Swiss-pair an odd number of teams?

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Post by Charlie Dees » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:24 am

ScoBo1987 wrote:Looks like this one is entirely because of the set schedule, and the bye didn't really affect the outcome... It looks like if Park Hill South had shown up Truman probably still would have beaten them and gone 3-0 on their easy schedule, so seeding would have still been the same - unless they did lose one game, then their low scoring would have put them 4th.  It doesn't help when you play the #1 and truly #3 team in the prelims, while Truman gets a bye and plays 2 other teams that haven't won any actual game...  although how do you Swiss-pair an odd number of teams?
Although here's just a thought to complicate it. At our conference the week before, as the mixture of awful questions and the PHS coach's awful moderating, we actually lost to Truman by 25 pts. (It's actually pretty funny story: on a bonus of "given a singer, give the named of their backup band" we got "Gladys Knight" and right then I started choking on Mountain Dew. We all said "the Pips" even though you couldn't understand me, and then our captain looked confidently at the moderator and said "Gladys Knight and the Pimps," which of course Truman got on a rebound. Then there was a question where we all almost answered kidney until the PHS coach said something about blocking the uterus. Truman then got it on a later clue in a buzzer race. We asked him to repeat the question and of course he read ureters, just had no idea how to say it).
although how do you Swiss-pair an odd number of teams?
That's why our district (and from what I've heard, most districts) are so annoying, because teams don't go. Also, there are a few coaches I don't like, namely PHS and Winnetonka, because PHS revealed multiple times that he probably isn't qualified to coach, and Winnietonka's :angry: Mr. Orr :angry: obviously doesn't care. He took his team to only two tournaments all year, quads and Maple Woods, and he dropped out of lots of them at the last minute. And what really ticks me is that his man gets a ton of recognition for his "contributions" to educationand educational extra-curriculars, while Mr. Allen, who's actually CONTRIBUTED to education and quizbowl gets literally no notice in our district, and less money, I'm assuming. I would venture to guess more teachers know him out of district that in it.

Here's an idea that this rant made me think of. How many of these "bad" teams are actually the result of awful coaching? Because if someone else were to coach these schools and find that they can make a better team, wouldn't districts be a lot more exciting?

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Post by Jeffrey Hill » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:59 am

ashkenaziCD wrote: Here's an idea that this rant made me think of. How many of these "bad" teams are actually the result of awful coaching? Because if someone else were to coach these schools and find that they can make a better team, wouldn't districts be a lot more exciting?
Yeah, anything would be a lot more exciting than "Liberty wins, unless NKC beats them"

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Post by Charlie Dees » Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:24 pm

I don't mean just our district, I mean some of these cushy districts too (although some of those districts I don't see doing anything notable anytime soon ahem district 7 lee's summit). And let's talk Richland, I think we've beaten NKC/Liberty to death now.

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Post by Jeffrey Hill » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:16 pm

Yes, what does MSHSAA do to get rid of weak districts? Put three defending district champions in the same district! They did so with Richland, Eugene, and Viburnum in 2005 (although the Viburnum part didn't really matter with TMCE graduating and heading to Rolla)

Districts that look weak:
Class 1 District 3, 5, 6, and maybe 7
Class 2 Districts 1, 3, and 7
Class 3 Districts 3 & 4
Class 4 District 7 (Districts 1 and 6 in the last couple of years haven't really made too much of a good showing, except for Nixa this year)

Class 4 is one of the better-balanced classes but district 7 has never really accomplished anything.

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Post by STPickrell » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:48 pm

PenforPrez wrote: This gets more obvious to me every year. When I talked to Stacey Schroeder at State this year, she led me to believe that MSHSAA seriously thinks that their counterparts run quiz bowl in every state. Uh, NO! Maybe I read too much in what she was saying, but that was how I interpreted it.
The following states have their MSHSAA-type group run their state championships:

Missouri (of course)
Virginia
Oklahoma
Arkansas
Kansas
Illinois

These are run by the same guys who run the championships in other sports. Not all MSHSAA-type groups offer non-athletic events.

Kentucky has a pretty wide-ranging program too but it is not run by their MSHSAA counterpart

Pennsylvania has a state championship of some sort where the finals are held in the state capital (now how cool is that?)

Most of the other states AFAIK have either nothing or a coaches' association run things (Georgia, Indian, North Carolina, Alabama, Louisiana and Ohio have them AFAIK).

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Post by Jeffrey Hill » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:57 pm

Was it the coaches association that ran it before 1996?

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