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PACE NSC

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Charlie Dees
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PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

I'm sitting in the basement of the tournament building waiting for quizbowl to start. A lot of people forgot that this is the last regular tournament of the year with a Missouri team in the field, so I wanted to make sure people are up on it as well. Good luck Holden, I will try and see if I can run into their coach before the tournament starts.

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Charlie Dees
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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

Follow along here - http://pacensc.wordpress.com/

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Charlie Dees
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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

Holden is playing, in order:
Simon Kenton
Ransom Everglades
Solon
Blake
Georgetown Day
duPont Manual A
St. Ignatius

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PenforPrez
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Re: PACE NSC

Post by PenforPrez »

ashkenaziCD wrote:Holden is playing, in order:
Simon Kenton
Ransom Everglades
Solon
Blake
Georgetown Day
duPont Manual A
St. Ignatius
Ouch. That's a tough draw. I've been thinking about Holden and I hope they do well. :)

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Charlie Dees
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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

The pools are at http://pace-nsc.org/results/bracketssched.xls.
Honestly, they got one of the milder draws in the tournament. PACE is no joke when it comes to competitiveness.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by PenforPrez »

ashkenaziCD wrote:PACE is no joke when it comes to competitiveness.
This is true.

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Charlie Dees
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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

http://www.pace-nsc.org/?p=916

Unfortunately, it looks like Holden hasn't won any games yet.

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Charlie Dees
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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »


WillHack
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Re: PACE NSC

Post by WillHack »

Idk if anyone will know this, but given how well Bellarmine did at the HSNCT, why weren't they at the NSC?

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Charlie Dees
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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

Money. One of their players was on the scab team though.

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Charlie Dees
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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

Also, multiple teams contending for top spots here weren't at the HSNCT. This happens every year.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

Holden split today, so no more results to report.

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Charlie Dees
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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

In the overall tournament, Southside and State College are about to play the only final game, because they are tied with one loss. Teams from Missouri really need to raise the money for PACE next year, this tournament is absolutely phenomenal.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Jeffrey Hill »

State College wins 430-330 after being significantly behind early on.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by WillHack »

I feel like Missouri schools would be significantly outclassed by most of the NSC teams at this point in time.

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Charlie Dees
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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

If you are a motivated player or team, being outclassed should not be a concern because losing to better teams is demonstrative. Being blown out will teach players with the right mindset that it is possible to be really good, and that they can work towards the same goal. However, having read the tournament, I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibility to say that some Missouri teams could potentially make the third tier playoff bracket, which means you're playing for top 30s-40s spots in the nation. I don't see anything wrong with that. The way PACE is set up allows teams to both play a 7 game sample of teams of varying talents - each bracket had 2 really nationally competitive teams, then on down all the way to the bottom, and then for the playoffs you get put in a pool against similarly performing teams, guaranteeing a lot of competitive games against teams that are about as good as you are. Statistically, the questions were easier than the HSNCT as best as I can tell, and reading for bottom bracket games yesterday, even there the teams were able to get plenty of tossups by the end and get lots of 10s or 20s on bonuses, because those questions were very accessible. In short, I actually have seen PACE in action three times, and I have also spent the last two years as a very intensive local circuit organizer, and in my much more expert opinion, I think any teams from Missouri that like playing good, pyramidal academic questions and want to get experience playing great teams and get a chance to play lots of games (5 more guaranteed than in the HSNCT) should seriously consider setting aside the budget to travel to the NSC next year.

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ZhangC1459
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Re: PACE NSC

Post by ZhangC1459 »

Yeah, the one thing I regret is not being able to go to PACE either year we qualified because of the fact that we simply don't have the budget available.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by WillHack »

I feel like my statement was not at all refuted by your response, Dees. :p

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Charlie Dees
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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

I mean, I guess I didn't, but really, your statement comes off as sounding like you're saying Missouri teams shouldn't go to PACE because they would lose a lot. It's incredibly discouraging the way you phrased it, and I don't really think that it is particularly accurate either, since as I said, the way the PACE format is set up, teams are guaranteed a lot of games against teams of similar calibre, and I have no doubt some Missouri teams would advance beyond the lowest bracket. I also think you are pretty unfairly singling out PACE here. The results from the HSNCT certainly would support someone asserting that Missouri teams were "outclassed" or whatever demeaning crap you want to say about the fact that no teams were good enough to make the playoffs, so why aren't you posting that in the HSNCT threads whenever people encourage teams to go to that?

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by WillHack »

You're suggesting that Missouri teams go to one of the most expensive tournaments they could possibly attend, when they generally have to push to get funding just to go to high quality tournaments in Missouri.

I think Missouri teams need smaller steps than missing playoffs at the HSNCT to dishing out hundreds to attend the NSC. Of course if teams have the time and cash, I wouldn't discourage them from going to the NSC; more questions can never hurt. I think there are far better uses of resources, however.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

Look dude, we already have a situation where many of the state's best teams have the budget to be locally active and then take a trip to Chicago at the end of the year. Many of these teams also have the intent of becoming nationally competitive at some point in the future. Despite our having an entirely nascent circuit when it comes to good quizbowl, in the span of just two years we've managed to find 12 teams who are competent enough to win at least four games at nationals. A number of these teams are returning their best players, who I can only assume will improve between now and next May, and probably become teams that are at least contenders for playoff spots at the HSNCT, making them that much closer to building an institutionalized high quality team, and potentially making it that much easier for them to bring in new players who will get really good and be contenders for nationals. I want to help the programs who are on this path get used to doing things that good teams do, so that they have fewer barriers to entry. One of these things is raising the money every year to attend the NSC. I just ran the numbers, and by my count, 30 schools* found it important enough to send teams to both the NSC and HSNCT (over half of the 48 schools at PACE). When you factor in B teams, 35 teams out of the NSC's 64 found it important enough to attend both events. 16 of these schools** are non-selective public schools, and another 5 schools are charter or magnet schools, meaning they are public but have some selection process, and may or may not have some extra money per student (my research says that some of these schools do, and some of them don't). So, up to 21 schools, or 24 teams (1/3 of the field), attending the NSC were public schools who managed to get the budget to attend both nationals. Obviously, some of these teams had help through proximity to D.C., or Chicago, but a lot of them did not at all. Some of these schools are also incredibly small, or incredibly poor. On top of that, a lot of private schools struggle with their budgeting as well, so there may be even more teams in poor financial shape who attended. Looking over the field of these overlapping teams, I can't find a single one except for maybe Warren Harding (4 NAQT events this year, and probably more local things in Ohio, so they probably don't count either) who had to sacrifice their ability to play an acceptable number of regular season tournaments in order to attend both nationals.

Now, I am not so naive as to think that all public schools are equal when it comes to money. However, a lot of them are really similar to local Missouri teams that are active, and a lot of local Missouri schools that are public are way better off than some schools like Danville. In a singular, rather extreme example, Dorman High School has a struggling student body - they routinely seem to be below average on their testing results and do not meet No Child Left Behind AYP goals (I question the law, but it is not a terrible statistic to gauge student performance). In 2008, the year their A team placed 3rd at PACE, 44.7% of their school qualified for free and reduced lunch (1,262 students - over 1,000 of them were on the free side). Yet their team has managed to finance itself for something like 20 years, placing incredibly highly at all kinds of national tournaments (winning the 2003 NSC, even), along with traveling all over the country to play the most competitive events out there (this year, they went to New York, Texas, and Michigan, along with the more drivable D.C. area). Is this incredibly unusual? Yes, of course it is, but it's also an amazing testament to just how much is possible when you set your mind to it. Do I expect every Missouri team out there to be Dorman? That's unreasonable. But do I think that maybe it's possible that we could find some teams who really want to improve to become nationally competitive, who are already locally active, and who could potentially raise the money to do this thing that almost every nationally competitive team in the nation does? Of course I do. I'm not saying we should tell all local teams to stop going to tournaments and only go to nationals. I'm not even telling the above class of teams to do this. I'm just saying that there are some potential financial solutions out there, and that if you can find them, you should absolutely use them to add the NSC to your schedule. To advocate anything less would probably be incredibly detrimental to any team's chances of getting good enough to win nationals. I certainly want to see Missouri produce a team good enough to do this, and I hope you do as well.

*For my argument, I am including Bellarmine and St. Viator both in my analysis. Bellarmine had a player who financed himself to play the NSC, and the only reason their full team didn't was reportedly financial mismanagement, as opposed to a true lack of budget to attend. St. Viator's team at the NSC was Dan Donohue playing solo, and early in the season he quit his regular school team and decided to just play a lot of things solo instead through personal funding, including the NSC. St. Viator's team at the HSNCT was their legitimate school club, which has a different source of finances. I still consider both of these examples to count for my argument, but I will agree they are both somewhat weaker examples than the rest of the field.

**Dunbar and Auburn are non-selective public schools that also include a small magnet program within their school, similar to how North Kansas City has the IB magnet within their otherwise very standard public high school. My understanding is that these schools get no more money than their other district schools, per student.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by WillHack »

I'm going to try to ignore the fact that you think No Child Left Behind is a good indicator of anything related to quizbowl, and point out that Dorman has consistently been one of the best teams in the country. When you're that good, you find a way to make every tournament there is.

There are no teams in Missouri that are Dorman, or anywhere close to Dorman, as you well know. I find it unlikely that we will get near Dorman in the next 3 years. A few more years after that, I think Missouri has a chance to be nationally competitive. Getting there will require attending the NSC at some point. But the fact that not even all of the current nationally competitive teams can afford to go to the NSC shows how much it costs.

There are several intermediate steps between [PCH/Clayton/NKC/etc] and Dorman, and I still think Missouri's money would be better spent on those steps than going to DC every year. If you can afford it, go for it; but the relative worth of getting blown out at NSC is less than that of attending Good Quizbowl tournaments throughout the year.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Jason Loy »

I don't think anyone's arguing that teams should forego playing good tournaments in Missouri in order to go to NSC. Obviously resources should be allotted for local events first, and it is of course conceivable, even likely, that worthy teams will not have enough money to attend a national tournament. However (in my opinion as well as in my interpretation of Charlie's argument), teams that do have the budget to travel to national tournaments should consider NSC in addition to (or even in place of) the HSNCT. Most of us agree that while HSNCT has made huge strides in the past few years, NSC still offers a greater focus on academic topics, and if bonus conversion statistics are any indication, greater accessibility than HSNCT. NSC also guarantees more matches than HSNCT.

Based on the sheer number of teams from Missouri attending HSNCT and their relative paucity at NSC, I would venture to say that Missouri teams view HSNCT as the default national tournament. If this viewpoint is necessitated by proximity or finances, that's completely understandable. If not, NSC is also a quality option for postseason play that offers arguably more advantages than the HSNCT.

Oh, and Dorman's ridiculously long period of sustained national success should serve as a reminder that not only academically elite schools can have off-the-charts quiz bowl programs. No, No Child Left Behind is not a good indicator of quiz bowl success, but I think we can safely say that a school not meeting AYP standards cannot be considered academically elite by any traditional standards.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by WillHack »

Yeah most of that is pretty fair, although I'm still not going to buy into the AYP. Parkway Central doesn't always pass them, and while it may not be an "elite" school, it's pretty darn good.

I think it is encouraging to teams at the HSNCT that they win a good number of games. The biggest reason Missouri teams go there, of course, being that it's a lot closer than DC.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charbroil »

WillHack wrote:...Dorman has consistently been one of the best teams in the country. When you're that good, you find a way to make every tournament there is.
Charlie hit most of the important points already, but it's worth noting that just because a team is good doesn't mean that it can pull money out of thin air. The reason Dorman wins is the same as the reason why Dorman wins games--they're motivated enough to do what it takes to do both. Thus, Missouri teams don't have the money not because they aren't good enough, but rather because they won't do the work necessary to find the money, and that same lack of motivation is the same reason why they're not nationally competitive. Thus, if Missouri teams wanted to, they could both find the money to go to PACE NSC as well as do well there**

Also, I have to ask where your interpretation that PACE NSC is impossibly more expensive than HSNCT is comes from. Assuming you drive*, there isn't much difference in cost at all, especially given that the hotel is marginally cheaper, as is the tournament itself.

*It takes about 10 hours, which is uncomfortable but definitely doable, especially with more than one chaperoning adult driving.

**Incidentally, like Charlie mentioned, the questions at PACE NSC aren't really that hard, and I for one know that I'd rather lose more games against high caliber teams on questions on unequivocally important academic topics that I'm broadly familiar with than win more on topics of occasional dubious importance against weak teams from the middle of nowhere.

Oh, one last thing:
WillHack wrote:Yeah most of that is pretty fair, although I'm still not going to buy into the AYP. Parkway Central doesn't always pass them, and while it may not be an "elite" school, it's pretty darn good.
Given that Dorman has more people on free & reduced lunch than PCH has students, I'd say that comparing the two in terms of community wealth (which correlates at least somewhat to academic accomplishment) is an absolute fallacy.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by WillHack »

I'm not defending a comparison between PCH and Dorman, which I already said didn't make much sense. I'm saying that AYP is stupid.

If the best teams in the state were going to all or most of the good tournaments in Missouri, this would make a lot more sense. Motivate Missouri teams to go to those, then worry about tournaments 10 hours away.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charbroil »

WillHack wrote: If the best teams in the state were going to all or most of the good tournaments in Missouri, this would make a lot more sense. Motivate Missouri teams to go to those, then worry about tournaments 10 hours away.
Isn't this true for HSNCT too? Unless your argument is fundamentally that teams shouldn't go to Nationals if they don't go to all tournaments the same distance away from them as Nationals (which doesn't make any sense), it really doesn't hold water. This is especially true given that as I mentioned above, PACE NSC is probably more enjoyable in a Quiz Bowl sense* than NAQT HSNCT is.

*The facilities are somewhat inferior, but I don't think it loses anything else in comparison. Besides, that in turns makes possible a cheaper entrance fee.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by WillHack »

Yes but Missouri teams actually WIN at HSNCT... as you should know best, Charles.

Don't get me wrong; I desperately wanted to go to the NSC when I played for PCH. And if we had had the money, we would have gone. But we barely got the money to go to HSNCT. And if we had gone, we would have been slaughtered.

Getting nationals experience is important. Going to the HSNCT is more practical, and the competition level is a lot more accessible.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by ZhangC1459 »

Hell, I'd've gone to the NSC to get slaughtered quite happily, because first, it's fun, second, it's a good experience, third, it's Washington DC and makes our team look good.

As for HSNCT and funds, depending on how that survey they passed out goes, we might actually have it in STL this year, which is epic win for PCH since we don't need to have a hotel, we can just meet up at Central each day and whatnot.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charbroil »

WillHack wrote:Yes but Missouri teams actually WIN at HSNCT... as you should know best, Charles.

Getting nationals experience is important. Going to the HSNCT is more practical, and the competition level is a lot more accessible.
I really disagree with the sentiment that you're likely to win more games at HSNCT than PACE NSC. Our team from last year would have probably made it into the third bracket at PACE NSC this year and won at least a few games while in that bracket, giving us a record of something between 5-10 and 7-8. That's not much worse than our 8-5 record at HSNCT, especially when you account for the fact that we would have encountered 3-4 teams significantly stronger than we were (in our preliminary bracket), whereas we only met two such teams at HSNCT.

I would agree that the weakest teams at NSC are on average stronger than the weakest teams at HSNCT, but since most Missouri teams are (fortunately) going at least 4-6 at HSNCT, it's not as if Missouri teams are encountering that many of the ultra-weak teams at HSNCT which you don't see at NSC.

Thus, in essence, at NSC, you get to play the same teams as you do at HSNCT (assuming you're a good team by Missouri standards), in addition to playing a number of teams that are significantly better than you. Given that I believe that more Quiz Bowl is better than less Quiz Bowl, I'd say that that's an argument for Missouri teams to go to NSC.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by L-Town Expatriate »

AYP, LOL.

To make adequate yearly progress, every conceivable subset of the district's population has to make progress. So if, in a district of 15,000 kids, a small gaggle of Hispanic or Asian or autistic or one-legged or webbed-footed third-graders don't perform well enough on the nutrition portion of the test, then the whole freakin' district is labelled a failure.

To say that No Censor Left Bored (as I've derisively called it since it was passed eight years ago) is a decent indicator of a school's chances of generating a quiz bowl team capable of winning national tournaments is the same as saying that this school's going to win a bunch of track titles because Richard Simmons or Billy Blanks appears at the Gold's Gym next door on a regular basis.

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Charlie Dees
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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

Will, can you outline what your qualifications are to pass judgment on my advice how to create a nationally competitive team, or how to help a circuit grow? Have you even seen a single high school tournament since the 2009 HSNCT? I hate to pull rank in arguments, but at a certain point, I have to kind of pick apart just what qualifications make you an expert with a good, justified opinion about this, and as best as I can tell, you have none. You have never seen PACE. You have never been around a nationally competitive team, or a team that is quickly developing into one. You have not actually been on the ground working with Missouri players, some of whom are incredibly motivated. You have not, as best as I understand, done anything with your college's team (which is a team that hosts multiple very good high school events every year). Now, I want to be clear that I am not attacking you for not being so involved in Missouri quizbowl, because that is your business and people have different priorities in college, especially when they aren't in state. However, if you are going to choose to not become so involved, I would strongly suggest leaving the advice to teams on how to do things like make plans for the future to try and improve to the people who actually have hands on experience doing those things. You apparently have no idea how quickly it is possible for a team to improve, based on statements like "There are several intermediate steps between [PCH/Clayton/NKC/etc] and Dorman, and I still think Missouri's money would be better spent on those steps than going to DC every year." My reading of that is basically saying that you think it's not possible for a Missouri team to reach the point where they are contending for high awards at PACE within the span of the next few years. Again, where is your expertise on this matter? What is giving you this strange opinion about how unlikely it is for a Missouri team to get that good? Tell me, in your estimation, what are the steps teams need to go through, and how long will they take?

Onto other things:
If the best teams in the state were going to all or most of the good tournaments in Missouri, this would make a lot more sense. Motivate Missouri teams to go to those, then worry about tournaments 10 hours away.
There are teams that do this. Schools like Parkway Central, NKC, Helias, Savannah, Pilot Grove, and Villa Duchesne all attended a large number of tournaments, most of which were good. Magically, these teams also were able to find the budget to go to Nationals. You keep acting like there's something tautological going on, and you keep missing the point. These teams already do what you are asking of them. They already are very active, work to improve, and apparently are able to find the budget to back all of this. Now, the whole point of me posting telling teams about the NSC is that I am trying to get teams like the above who already meet the criteria of "active and interested" to see if it is at all possible for them to supplement their already scheduled team activities with one extra tournament per year, which can potentially provide them with lots of benefits which you seem to keep dodging (stop talking about how teams are going to get blown out at the NSC, I told you already that there is a whole half of the tournament within tiered consolation pools for any teams that don't make the playoffs which will guarantee lots of games against similarly skilled opponents. Also, blowouts aren't bad, and if you think they are then you need to read Blowouts and How to Learn From Them). I want to help the teams that are already on track with the right ideas learn how to streamline their team and set yearly expectations, which include a certain amount of fundraising sometimes, so that they can get in the habit of doing all the things that pretty much every team that gets nationally competitive ever does. There is not a choice between staying locally active and going to the NSC for many teams, and it is absurd that you seem to think both in terms of team activity and in terms of what I am personally working on that there can only be one or the other. Somehow there is enough time in the day where I can both worry about the local circuit and worry about a tournament 10 hours away, and there's even enough time for me to worry about how those things interact too. Sorry to break it to you.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

Also, if people honestly think I am saying AYP is a predictor of quizbowl skill, you obviously didn't read my post.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by L-Town Expatriate »

The 800-kilo gorilla in the room here isn't the referencing of unfunded federal mandates or which national tournament's better, it's whether a school can even afford to make the trip. Missouri's traditionally one of the most fiscally restrained spenders in the nation when it comes to funding, well, anything. That goes across the board, from a Democrat governor who outright rejected the idea of a tax increase when facing a half-billion budget gap, down to the basketball coach who triples as an AD, US History teacher, and faculty sponsor for SADD. If money weren't an issue, certainly teams who have a chance of doing well, or want to say they were there, ought to go.

But it is an issue. State tax revenues are still declining. We could easily be slipping into a double-dip recession. We have an ecological pandemonium 800 miles to the south of us. And even with the mess in the Gulf, earthquakes in Haiti, and half of Appalachia still fortunate to have food on the table tonight, charitable giving is down. School districts are still at risk from decreased state funding when the FY2011 budget is hammered out next year, meaning coaches, principals & ADs are going to think twice about lengthy trips to DC, Chicago, and even across the state.

Sure, we can talk all we want about why teams should go and how they can improve, but how the heck are they going to pay for it? DC and Chicago are not exactly Bargainville USA.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by scphilli »

Kyle making this into some indicia of grandiose social problems like you've been doing lately is not helpful when there are numerous practical solutions for affording both the DC and Chicago trip. We don't always have to rely on the powers that be for everything. For example, Rock Bridge traveled to Chicago, not via a van or school bus but via megabus. This is a service that stops in KC, Columbia, and STL and is DIRT CHEAP. Charlie and I have been using it for quite awhile. I've gotten fares (especially when bought in enough advance) that were $5. If more schools simply had their kids use this service (particularly those in those areas), it would vitiate an enormous amount of the expense apart from the hotel and entry fee. The rest can be realized through 1) holding tournaments, 2) fundraising by hosting events in the community like trivia nights, etc. Heck my high school youth group used to raise $6K a year to take 15+ kids on mission trips to Savannah, GA, Montana, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, etc. Are you telling me that it is impossible for a student group to do similarly if they are devoted to this as a goal?

Will, your statements dishearten me in their bleak tone, negative tendencies, and outright ignorance. Like Charlie said, you've never been to PACE. You are unintentionally bashing your ex-teammates who would have 1) liked to have gone to this event and 2) done decently. After all, at WUHSAC, your alma mater beat Ransom Everglades which was third tier at this event. It's really a shame. I thought you knew better.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charbroil »

L-Town Expatriate wrote:Post regarding Missouri's budgetary shortfalls, etc.
Whereas I'm sure everything you've said is true, I really disagree that the overall budgetary situation in Missouri is terribly relevant to this discussion. It's true that many Missouri schools (and by extension, Quiz Bowl teams) do have budgetary shortfalls, including, notably, my alma mater, but quite frankly, the cost of a trip to PACE NSC (or NAQT HSNCT) simply is not large enough to merit discussion of the Missouri budgetary crisis.

More importantly, PACE NSC is not that expensive. The only cost which a team going to PACE NSC faces which it might not if going to NAQT HSNCT is airfare, and as I mentioned before, a ten hour drive is not intolerable; plenty of people drive that far for vacation every year.

Additional point: Sean brings up the good point that cheap long distance land transportation methods also exist.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

Kyle, I again will direct you to the part of this thread where I laid out the fact that somehow many other public schools are able to raise the money to go to both PACE and the HSNCT, and that some of these teams are in fact in very poor districts. Sure, Missouri has some very poor teams, but there are a lot who aren't. Some of these schools come from states that in fact have much worse financial situations than Missouri. Illinois has always been racked by financial trouble due to their massively corrupt state government. California is a disaster. But both of these states have produced teams who play full schedules that include both the NSC and HSNCT. The key is that schools who don't get administrative support do other things, like Sean said. I don't believe for a minute that a school which already plays lots of tournaments on their district's dole wouldn't be able to raise the a nice hunk of money to throw towards PACE if they hosted a 16 team NAQT IS set tournament (my estimation for a $70 entry fee amounts to about $800 profit). If you can pull together an even larger tournament, then there is nothing to worry about, and you can also host 2 tournaments. Teams that take it seriously, even teams that are not considered national contenders, do just that in order to make sure they can raise their money. I have been encouraged by seeing teams like Parkway Central and Villa Duchesne hosting tournaments, and honestly unless your administration is so awful that they won't even let you run a tournament, I would say that it is unreasonable to expect that you can fund these kinds of trips without doing some of your own work to raise money. There are also the myriad other fundraisers out there that so many other student clubs do to fund trips to their important events. There is no reason a quizbowl team couldn't hold a bake sale. Sean is absolutely right, there are many different ways to accumulate team money, and I would be appalled if administrators had any problem with your team doing just that, since the result is that you get to go to nationals and represent the school in an academic setting. Is it possible to be lucky and have a district that will just throw money at you? Yeah, but it's ultra unlikely. Is the reality that nearly every other school that takes things seriously enough to play both nationals also takes things seriously enough to find their own ways to raise money? I don't care what you say about Missouri being worse than these states, the answer is still always going to be yes. Teams that are serious need to explore these options, and unless you have raised a lot of money and it still isn't enough to figure out a way to take a cheap 10 hour road trip, I do not want to hear that it is impossible to go to PACE. Will every team do this? Of course not, but again, my interest in promoting PACE is to promote it to the teams that are already on track to becoming nationally competitive, and teams that are nationally competitive do their own work to raise money. America doesn't have 49 states that throw money at the whims of each club and then Missouri, tons of other schools everywhere have big financial trouble, yet somehow both quizbowl nationals continue to expand and find plenty of teams who are willing to fork over the cash through whatever means they can get.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by L-Town Expatriate »

Chuq, maybe it's because my writing style's trained in the ways of the AP, but the enter key should be your friend. It's taking me (and perhaps several others) awhile to glean your points from a huge block of text that easily could have been four paragraphs without needing to switch any sentences around.

Most of your points and Sean's, frankly, I agree. We need to be encouraging schools to host more tournaments. We need to ensure that those tournaments have quality questions and the best staff available. We need to help teams generate fund raising options so that they can afford to make it to as many tournaments as they can.

Unlike California and Illinois, we're not extensively connected with regional airline, rail and bus options. Our only Megabus line runs along I-70. We don't have the sheer number of teams in close proximity to one another, around major metropolitans or easily connected to them by way of said extensive regional transit options, that can generate quality competition around each other. So many teams will have to rely on private and school funding.

If Missouri were to face a budget calamity the likes of which have plagued California and Illinois, schools whose programs risk getting cut to balance the budget need an arsenal of support from us, by way of people power and (if we're not within driving distance or don't have a strong personal connection to the affected school) fund-raising ideas. That way, if school board members think that they can cut a quiz bowl program so that their perpetually 2-8 football team can afford new jerseys next year, well, our friends arguing against cuts can tell them to go to New Jersey, amongst other undesirable locations. (Apologies to anyone who finds New Jersey a desirable location.)
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Re: PACE NSC

Post by WillHack »

Well I'm not surprised that I'm being villainized here, something about this board often results in an "us-vs-them" mentality, but the statements you're arguing against are:

"I feel like Missouri schools would be significantly outclassed by most of the NSC teams at this point in time."

and

"I think Missouri teams need smaller steps than missing playoffs at the HSNCT to dishing out hundreds to attend the NSC. Of course if teams have the time and cash, I wouldn't discourage them from going to the NSC; more questions can never hurt. I think there are far better uses of resources, however."

Maybe you should consider my words when bashing, rather than any perceived tone in this discussion.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

No dude, you said a lot of other nonsense, some of which I exactly quoted, that dug yourself into a bigger hole.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charlie Dees »

Also, are you going to answer my questions, some of which were direct responses to the very statements you made that you are pretending I didn't respond to?

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charbroil »

L-Town Expatriate wrote: Unlike California and Illinois, we're not extensively connected with regional airline, rail and bus options. Our only Megabus line runs along I-70. We don't have the sheer number of teams in close proximity to one another, around major metropolitans or easily connected to them by way of said extensive regional transit options, that can generate quality competition around each other. So many teams will have to rely on private and school funding.
You realize that, for one thing, St. Louis and Kansas City qualify as your major metropolitan centers, and that plenty of teams from more isolated locations (ex. Carbondale in Illinois, Dorman, and nearly every team in California) seem to have no trouble overcoming similar issues?

More importantly, do you really have a point you're trying to make here? Of course Missouri isn't the wealthiest state in the country. Of course it isn't the most ideally laid out in terms of Quiz Bowl geography. That said, it's not nearly one of the worst states in either sense, and more importantly, do those points really mean that Missouri teams can't attend PACE NSC? Why do you conclude the latter point from the former?
WillHack wrote:...the statements you're arguing against are:

"I feel like Missouri schools would be significantly outclassed by most of the NSC teams at this point in time."

and

"I think Missouri teams need smaller steps than missing playoffs at the HSNCT to dishing out hundreds to attend the NSC. Of course if teams have the time and cash, I wouldn't discourage them from going to the NSC; more questions can never hurt. I think there are far better uses of resources, however."
/quote]

First of all, you didn't mention the important point that you're implying that just because Missouri teams would be outclassed by many teams at NSC, Missouri teams shouldn't attend at all. That argument is not only intensely defeatist, but taken to its logical conclusions, implies that no one should play Quiz Bowl unless they think they can win tournaments. Obviously, if anyone took your advice to that logical conclusion, no one would play because everyone is likely to lose at some point.

More importantly, I fail to understand how you reconcile your view against attending PACE NSC with your presumed support of attending NAQT HSNCT. The two tournaments cost roughly the same, assuming you drive to both, a high level Missouri team would probably win the same proportion of games at both, and quite frankly, in many ways, the NSC is a superior tournament. Thus, the question remains--how can you be in support of attending National tournaments at all if you believe that only teams sure to reach the playoffs of HSNCT as well as in possession of as much money as they could possibly want should go to NSC, given that the same arguments apply to HSNCT?

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by L-Town Expatriate »

St. Louis & KC are peanuts compared to Chicago, LA, San Francisco & San Diego. Sad but true.
Charbroil wrote:More importantly, do you really have a point you're trying to make here? Of course Missouri isn't the wealthiest state in the country. Of course it isn't the most ideally laid out in terms of Quiz Bowl geography. That said, it's not nearly one of the worst states in either sense, and more importantly, do those points really mean that Missouri teams can't attend PACE NSC? Why do you conclude the latter point from the former?
My point is some of these teams can't afford it. If they can afford it, do it. But if schools face decreased funding and private or charitable sources don't make up the difference, then some of the schools we're wanting to help get to Chicago & DC might have a bigger fight on their hands: their own program's existence.

Granted, that's probably a subject for a different thread.
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Re: PACE NSC

Post by socalcaptain »

This thread has certainly been well traversed...

Here's the deal:

Yes, we're in a financial crisis, and schools have little money to throw at quiz bowl, however sad that might be. Teams can (and do) host fundraisers, and it is indeed possible to make enough money to attend national tournaments if you're willing to put in the effort.

If you can afford to attend a national tournament, do it. If transportation, scheduling, or other external factors cause HSNCT to be more convenient than NSC, then attend HSNCT, or vice versa. If you can get the money, go to both.

All this quibbling is nonsense. I went to a small, rural school district, and yet our FBLA team was able to attend National Leadership Conference for something like six consecutive years because we were able to fundraise.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charbroil »

L-Town Expatriate wrote:St. Louis & KC are peanuts compared to Chicago, LA, San Francisco & San Diego. Sad but true.
You do realize that both St. Louis & KC have larger, more vibrant by far circuits than all of the teams you just mentioned except Chicago?
L-Town Expatriate wrote:
Charbroil wrote:More importantly, do you really have a point you're trying to make here? Of course Missouri isn't the wealthiest state in the country. Of course it isn't the most ideally laid out in terms of Quiz Bowl geography. That said, it's not nearly one of the worst states in either sense, and more importantly, do those points really mean that Missouri teams can't attend PACE NSC? Why do you conclude the latter point from the former?
My point is some of these teams can't afford it. If they can afford it, do it. But if schools face decreased funding and private or charitable sources don't make up the difference, then some of the schools we're wanting to help get to Chicago & DC might have a bigger fight on their hands: their own program's existence.
I mean, sure, some teams can't afford to go to NSC. Some teams are in danger of folding. And similarly, some teams are going to Nationals for the first time. And others are being formed. While the budget crisis is very real, it's absurd to extend concerns about said crisis into an argument against encouraging teams to play at one specific national tournament which quite frankly isn't significantly more expensive (if at all) than the one which no one objects to teams attending.

In conclusion, no one says that some teams legitimately can't attend Nationals because of a lack of money. That said, I strongly believe that it's absolutely absurd to say that Missouri teams as a whole shouldn't attend PACE NSC for reasons of either competitiveness or funding.
L-Town Expatriate wrote: Granted, that's probably a subject for a different thread.
I agree entirely.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by WillHack »

@Dees: Indeed you do quote a few other things that I said:

"If the best teams in the state were going to all or most of the good tournaments in Missouri, this would make a lot more sense. Motivate Missouri teams to go to those, then worry about tournaments 10 hours away."

Which I hold by. It doesn't seem worth looking through all of the tournament threads for this season, but you'll see that plenty of Missouri schools didn't make good tournaments for various reasons, or went to Questions Galore tournaments instead.

"There are several intermediate steps between [PCH/Clayton/NKC/etc] and Dorman, and I still think Missouri's money would be better spent on those steps than going to DC every year."

I really am saying that I don't think a team in Missouri will be winning top awards at the NSC in the next few years. The best teams practice more, they know how to get the most talented individuals at their schools to participate, they motivate their players better than in Missouri. Stuff like that. Feel free to prove me wrong, but it would be quite a shock.

As for pulling rank (which you hate to do???), it would make sense if we were arguing semantics about the relative playability of NAQT and PACE questions, which you've heard more of. I'm saying that PACE is expensive and difficult to get people to, and I think it is more valuable to do other things assuming that you can't do every thing. You are free to argue that there is some kind of innate worth in the NSC that makes it more valuable than any other use of money; but I don't think I would buy into that argument.

Teams ARE going to get blown out at NSC. Even within the tiered system, they'll be quite unlikely to end up with a .500 record. I'm not saying that blowouts are negatives, other than the fact that they can be de-motivating. But they will be blown out, multiple times, so might as well let that be known now.

I think teams should be as active as they can be. If every team could attend every tournament, THAT would be my suggestion.

If it were so easy to get funding for NSC, Charles Hang, believe me, nearly every team that could go would go.

I agree completely with Alex Dzurick's latest post. Go for it, get the money and go.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by Charbroil »

WillHack wrote:Restating the universally agreed upon facts that teams attending Nationals will need to spend money and anticipate quite possibly losing badly, with the caveat that:

I agree completely with Alex Dzurick's latest post. Go for it, get the money and go.
I agree with the last point entirely. Teams that are interested in facing good competition should go to Nationals. PACE NSC is no more expensive than NAQT HSNCT is, only slightly harder to reach, and better in a number of ways. Thus, teams should definitely consider attending PACE NSC in addition to and/or in lieu of NAQT HSNCT; I'm glad that you finally agree with me and Charlie.

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by scphilli »

WillHack wrote:Well I'm not surprised that I'm being villainized here, something about this board often results in an "us-vs-them" mentality, but the statements you're arguing against are:

"I feel like Missouri schools would be significantly outclassed by most of the NSC teams at this point in time."

and

"I think Missouri teams need smaller steps than missing playoffs at the HSNCT to dishing out hundreds to attend the NSC. Of course if teams have the time and cash, I wouldn't discourage them from going to the NSC; more questions can never hurt. I think there are far better uses of resources, however."

Maybe you should consider my words when bashing, rather than any perceived tone in this discussion.
It is not my wish to villainize anyone. It is by your actions and your tone that I will always damn you and anyone else that spouts this ignorant nonsense.
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Re: PACE NSC

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?

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Re: PACE NSC

Post by scphilli »

And furthermore Will,

Those of us in the trenches of trying to improve quizbowl in Missouri find it insulting when one who has done absolutely nothing to help the status quo actively makes statements to discourage individuals from reaching their fullest potential. It should not matter if a team goes 500 or a game or two under or loses all their prelim games. By the mere fact that they tried their hardest, and gave their all, and LEARNED from that experience to be better in the future is a mark of positive growth and we can only have that when people TRY! Not when people are so SCARED of big bad teams that they don't think it is worth their time to go in the first place. Not that you tried too hard to begin with as I recall you won most of your rounds off the backs of better teammates you Mr. So Deserving Of Your Last Name!

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