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Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Tournament announcements, results, and discussion about specific tournaments.
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FZW Coach
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Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by FZW Coach » Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:54 pm

Question Provider: Show Me (Bill Luce)
Format: (normal JV State format); each question = 10 points with the exception of toss-ups in the 5th quarter/period
1st - 15 toss-ups
2nd - Lighting Round (10 questions, 1 min.; 20 point bonus if all 10 are correct; rebound at end of minute)
3rd - 5 toss-ups with bonus (use toss-ups until all 5 bonus quesitons have been used)
4th - worksheet (20 questions)
5th - remaining toss-ups (could be up to 20 toss-ups if only 5 toss-ups were used in the 3rd quarter, each toss-up in this quarter is worth 20 points)


Large Schools Division (Vikings)

Round 1
Liberty 560, Marshall 270
Clayton 360, Kirksville 590
Rock Bridge 440, Branson 410
De Smet 540, CBC 370
FZW 540, Helias 420

Round 2
Liberty 460, Kirksville 560
Rock Bridge 390, De Smet 470
FZW 670, Marshall 250
Clayton 450, Branson 410
CBC 410, Helias 420

Round 3
Kirksville defeated De Smet
FZW 530, Clayton 320
Helias 470, Liberty 440
Rock Bridge defeated marshall
CBC 410, Branson 340

Round 4
FZW 560, Kirksville 520
Helias 510, Rock Bridge 380
De Smet 540, CBC 390
Liberty 600, Clayton 400
Branson 360, Marshall 290

Semifinals
(1) FZW 480, (4) Helias 580
(2) Kirksville defeated (3) De Smet

Finals

Ultimate Championship




(Many more details next week. I believe that Brian (Helias) will have the stats available in the SQBS program.)

Schools Competing in Small School Division (Dragons)
Barstow
Boonville
Clever
Lexington
Richland
Mexico
Salem
Savannah
Fulton
College Heights
Last edited by FZW Coach on Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:06 am, edited 3 times in total.

FZW Coach
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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by FZW Coach » Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:57 pm

Individual Results

Large Schools
1. Dylan Becraft (FZW) = 10, 17, 15, 14 = 56, 14 AVG
2. student from (Liberty) = 50, 12.5 AVG
3. Matt (CBC)
4. (De Smet)
5.
6.
7.
8.



(More results later)

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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Kirksville Coach » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:35 am

Here are a few more results:

Large Schools Division (Vikings)

Round 1
Liberty 560, Marshall 270
Clayton 360, Kirksville 590
Rock Bridge 440, Branson 410
De Smet 540, CBC 370
FZW 540, Helias 420

Round 2
Liberty 460, Kirksville 560
Rock Bridge 390, De Smet 470
FZW 670, Marshall 250
Clayton 450, Branson 410
CBC 410, Helias 420

Round 3
Kirksville 660, De Smet 340
FZW 530, Clayton 320
Helias 470, Liberty 440
Rock Bridge defeated marshall
CBC 410, Branson 340

Round 4
FZW 560, Kirksville 520
Helias 510, Rock Bridge 380
De Smet 540, CBC 390
Liberty 600, Clayton 400
Branson 360, Marshall 290

Semifinals
(1) FZW 480, (4) Helias 580
(2) Kirksville 660 (3) De Smet 370

Finals
Kirksville 460, Helias 410

Ultimate Championship
Kirksville 530, Savannah 450

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Machina
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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Machina » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:25 pm

Good show by everyone who participated!!

I have a quick note/question. Was this set really easy? These scores seem to be anomalously high.

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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by dividebyzero » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:32 pm

Machina wrote:Good show by everyone who participated!!

I have a quick note/question. Was this set really easy? These scores seem to be anomalously high.
I obviously wasn't there, but just looking at the format, there's a potential *counts on fingers* ummm, lot of points each team could score if you look at all five rounds per game. :wink:

That being said, you and I have both played Bill Luce sets before, and keep in mind that these are written for JV kids. So yes, I would assume the questions weren't that difficult (or well-written, if I were to hazard a guess, but I don't really have the know to say that...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*homepage --------> last post by me in every subforum (except collegiate, I suppose)
makes me feel like a thread spammer :D

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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by FZW Coach » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:13 am

Machina wrote:Good show by everyone who participated!!

I have a quick note/question. Was this set really easy? These scores seem to be anomalously high.

These are pretty normal scores for this format. I guess you could go back and look at last year's link to compare. I know that we hit 600 one game last year, which also was the case this year.

If you understand the worksheet scoring, then you would understand why the scores are so high. Both teams were getting an average of 150 points/game simply from that one round. The last quarter (which could be up to 20 toss-up questions) were worth 20 points each.

The questions were written at a jv level. Very well done!

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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Kirksville Coach » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:36 am

Here are some more results:

First place: Kirksville
Second place: Savannah
Third place: Helias
Fourth place: College Heights Christian

Dragons:
1. Savannah
2. College Heights
3. Lexington
4. Fulton

Vikings
1. Kirksville
2. Helias
3. Fort Zumwalt
4. Liberty

Medalists:
Dragons:
1. Dylan R. (Fulton)
2. Judson W. (Barstow)
3. Devin C. (Savannah)
3. Ian K. (Lexington)
5. Seth H. (Savannah)
5. Lane H. (Salem)
7. Dalton T. (Richland)
8. Andrew P. (Clever)
Vikings:
1. Dylan B. (FZW)
2. Mack Y. (Liberty)
3. Matt G. (CBC)
4. Steve T. (DeSmet)
5. Riaz H. (Rockbridge)
6. Jessica R. (Kirksville)
7. Cam C. (Helias)
8. Nick B. (Branson)

I'd like to add that I thought the questions comprised an excellent JV set. The scores were high because of the format. And, of course, because of the quality of the players.

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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Kirksville Coach » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:31 pm

After having read quite a few previous posts about the controversy surrounding past JV tournaments (of which I was largely unaware, being relatively new to coaching and, until recently, completely ignorant of these boards), I have a few things I'd like to add.

#1 - Kirksville played only Freshmen and Sophomores in this tournament, none of whom played regularly on varsity, though one or two might have played a quarter here or there or on "B" teams at one or two varsity tournaments. Personally, I think that making this a rule would eliminate much of the controversy of the past. But the MACA rules are now fairly clear, you can play non-seniors who don't regularly play on varsity. This seems fair as long as coaches honestly abide by the rule.

#2 - I really like how Marshall had their JV tournament and the Varsity tournament on the same day. This eliminates all questions about who is varsity and who is JV. (Thanks, Audrey, you run the best tournaments in the state. Well, the best ones I've been to, anyway.)

#3 - I don't like a proposed rule that some have mentioned which states that those who play in the JV tournament should be disqualified from varsity district play. This is unfair to players who have played JV all season, but who earn a spot on the district team. Even the pros are allowed to expand their rosters for the playoffs. If a JV player has played JV all year, but ends up one of your top eight, why shouldn't he or she be allowed to play? Once an underclassmen play at districts, though, I don't think that he or she should be allowed to go back to JV. In my opinion, they are now officially varsity. I have a freshman who played JV all year, but I moved her up to varsity for districts. I don't think it would be fair to move her down to JV for the tournament next year, just as I don't think it would have been fair to disqualify her from districts if she earned a spot.

Just my two cents.

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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by FishyFreshman » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:16 pm

I mostly agree with your points. I think coaches generally have a good idea of what is ok and what isn't. The problem with #3 if I remember correctly, is that a player played JV and the proceeded to be the best player on the team at districts. I find it hard to be believe that a coach wouldn't notice that sort of talent before districts. As far as the top JV players making it into the 8 districts players goes, I have no issue with that.

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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Kirksville Coach » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:36 pm

Though I wasn't coaching then, I believe the rules were different at the time, so the question is moot. I didn't mean to bring up dead horses to beat, just to clear the air.

The freshman I moved up at districts turned out to be our number two scorer at districts. I knew she was good all season, but I didn't need to play her at the varsity level until then, and the practice in the Freshman and JV tournaments helped her improve her skills. Of course, like I said, I don't think it would be fair to bring her down to play in the JV tournament next year, and I won't.

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Charlie Dees
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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Charlie Dees » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:40 pm

What are the current rules for JV State? I was unaware that they made any significant revision to the eligibility rules since then.

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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Kirksville Coach » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:09 pm

The year after the controversy, I believe MACA came up with the "Ravi" rule about not playing regular starters on varsity at the JV tournament. I wasn't coaching then, but they discussed it briefly at the MACA conference in 2008. My understanding was the JV tournament was limited to non-seniors who don't play varsity regularly, which would have eliminated the controversies from 2007 JV tournament. I can't claim to be an expert, though.

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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Charlie Dees » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:40 pm

I was always under the impression that JV state either explicitly or implicitly did not want varsity starters to play.

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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Kirksville Coach » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:16 pm

Again, this is only my second year of coaching, so I can't speak for what happened in the past, and, as you can tell, my ignorance is vast. I do know that when I attended the MACA conference in the fall of 2008 (when I first started coaching), they talked about the "new" rule, which, as I understood it, was that the JV tournament was specifically limited to non-seniors who don't play varsity regularly. It's the last part they emphasized. Some of the coaches told me informally that this was the "Ravi" rule. Since that is the extent of my knowledge, I defer to anyone who knows more. Personally, I think limiting the tournament to Freshmen and Sophomores makes sense, but many schools don't have a large number of players, which might make this rule difficult for them. I also think that anyone who plays on the district team should no longer be eligible for JV, and, as a coach, that is the rule I will follow.

I'm beginning to regret bringing this up. It's just that after reading old posts, there seemed to be a lot of bad blood against Kirksville, and I just wanted to let other coaches and teams know what my philosophy was. Of course I enjoy winning, but fair play trumps winning in my book any day.

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Charlie Dees
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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Charlie Dees » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:25 pm

There are no worries, I don't think anyone here is naive enough to think that you are responsible for your program's past or anything. I'm personally glad to hear you jumping into the discussion and making well reasoned thoughts and inquiries, which is about the best thing a new coach can do.

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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Charbroil » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:01 pm

Kirksville Coach wrote: Once an underclassmen play at districts, though, I don't think that he or she should be allowed to go back to JV. In my opinion, they are now officially varsity. I have a freshman who played JV all year, but I moved her up to varsity for districts. I don't think it would be fair to move her down to JV for the tournament next year, just as I don't think it would have been fair to disqualify her from districts if she earned a spot.

Just my two cents.
Just out of curiousity, what's your opinion regarding teams that have eight or fewer players total, so that if they do decide to bring as many players to Districts as MSHSAA allows, they would be forced to lose those extra players (even if they're going to be sophomores the next year) for JV play?

Personally, I think a better idea rather than basing restrictions on age would be to base them on either number of years of experience or to base them on previous scoring totals, though the second option probably only works for question providers with a consistent sense of difficulty like HSAPQ or NAQT as opposed to the absurdity that QG and other Missouri providers occasionally throw in.

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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Kirksville Coach » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:18 pm

I guess I was basing my "rules" for myself on a completely different situation, where I have too many players to find time for all of them to play. My "rule" wouldn't make sense for a team that small. (Which is one of the reasons I think requiring a four man team is unfair.) The number of years experience is a good idea to incorporate, but I have a senior who just joined this year, and I don't think she belonged in the JV tournament (which of course would be covered by the no-senior rule, but she does only have one year experience.) And your points idea is good, but with teams using all kinds of question sets and facing teams of incredibly varying quality, it could be meaningless. But, then again, it does give some indication of experience, and it makes perfect sense to incorporate it into who should play JV.

Because of the various situations of the different teams around the state, a one-size-fits-all approach would probably not be a good match for every district.

I guess I just believe in fair play. Coaches, players, and officials should use common sense and apply the golden rule.

(Boy, that sounded sappy.)

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Charlie Dees
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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Charlie Dees » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:33 pm

Which is one of the reasons I think requiring a four man team is unfair.
Could you elaborate a little on this? Since I've not heard of any tournaments with a 4-man limit to each team's roster, do you mean then that you wish we could have more than 4 players in the game at any time?

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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Jeffrey Hill » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:35 pm

ashkenaziCD wrote:
Which is one of the reasons I think requiring a four man team is unfair.
Could you elaborate a little on this? Since I've not heard of any tournaments with a 4-man limit to each team's roster, do you mean then that you wish we could have more than 4 players in the game at any time?
Putting that more in context:
My "rule" wouldn't make sense for a team that small. (Which is one of the reasons I think requiring a four man team is unfair.)
I think he means the rule that MSHSAA requires four players to be active at all times (the one that disqualified several teams at districts)

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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Jeffrey Hill » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:02 pm

ashkenaziCD wrote:There are no worries, I don't think anyone here is naive enough to think that you are responsible for your program's past or anything. I'm personally glad to hear you jumping into the discussion and making well reasoned thoughts and inquiries, which is about the best thing a new coach can do.
Charlie basically said everything I wanted to say. It's great to have a new coach actively involved in discussions on the board. Coaches' perspective is often missing in discussions here because there are so few who regularly post, so I'm quite pleased to hear your take on this particularly contentious topic.

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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Charlie Dees » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:21 pm

U. Lou Sthagaim wrote:
ashkenaziCD wrote:
Which is one of the reasons I think requiring a four man team is unfair.
Could you elaborate a little on this? Since I've not heard of any tournaments with a 4-man limit to each team's roster, do you mean then that you wish we could have more than 4 players in the game at any time?
Putting that more in context:
My "rule" wouldn't make sense for a team that small. (Which is one of the reasons I think requiring a four man team is unfair.)
I think he means the rule that MSHSAA requires four players to be active at all times (the one that disqualified several teams at districts)
Oh, now I see. Yeah, of course I agree that, given MSHSAA's newly small districts, if they want to have a shot of maybe getting a large enough field at these events to justify them, they definitely need to drop this silly rule that does nothing but hurt teams that are already having a hard time.

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Re: Junior Varsity State 2010 (April 10 @ Helias)

Post by Kirksville Coach » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:23 pm

Yes, I was referring to the rule that schools are disqualified from district play if they don't have four players. Completely unfair. Some schools have a hard time getting players, and this rule could really hurt some superstar who happens to live in a very small school district. It's not like the game can't be played if a team only has one or two players.

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