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Richland Varsity/JV Tournament 
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Richland will host a varsity-junior varsity tournament on Saturday, Oct. 17. There are 24 spots open, on a first come. first serve basis. If there are enough JV teams, then we will set up a jv division.

If you are interested in competing, contact me, Bob Brown.
My home address is: Bob Brown, P.O. Box 801, Richland, Mo. 65556
My email address is: questionbank@webound.com
My home phone number is: 573-765-9971
My cell phone number is: 573-855-7002


The cost is 50 dollars per team. All teams are guaranteed 3 games, with 12 teams advancing to the finals. Games will begin at 9:00 and will be standard Missouri format games.

I am opening this tournament up to question providers across the state. This includes all of you guys who complain about question providers. We are limiting questions to four sentence maximums, but would prefer pyramidal questions of three sentences (due to time constraints). We want the distribution of questions to parallel MSHSAA standards (including mathematics). Games must include 10 extra questions in case of ties.

We will pay you the same rate that I get paid per game, that is 25 dollars per game. Once the questions are used, you can use them at other tournaments if you wish. All teams will receive copies of your games. We will want the games emailed to us, no later than Sept. 20.

I would hope that we would get a great set of questions that we can show to MSHSAA and members of MOACA. Please remember the time constraints (15 seconds) on math questions. This is one rule that I would like to see our board change to 30 seconds on calculations.

Any questions, just give me a call.

Have a great summer,

Bob Brown
Richland High School
The Question Bank


Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:52 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
This sounds like this could be a great tournament. We might be interested in attending.


Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:34 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
richbob wrote:
We are limiting questions to four sentence maximums, but would prefer pyramidal questions of three sentences (due to time constraints).
When you say "four sentences," do you mean "4 lines Times New Roman, 12 font?"


Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:25 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Sorry that I didn't get back to you all until now; the storms took out my phone line to the internet. Looks like the surge device saved my modem.

When I say four sentences, I do mean in "Arial 12." Math computation questions don't lend themselves to being pyramidal, so they can be shorter. We just have to complete games within one hour. So, I don't want eight line sentences. Some of the revisions that I saw by Mike Wehmer were perfect.

My hope is to get Mike, Charlie Dees, Spencer, Jeffrey Hill, Matt (Radical 20) Chadbourne, or you to produce a great set that will "set a standard" for quality, practicality, and efficiency (in less than one hour). Again, we want the "standard MSHSAA mix of questions" in terms of subject area. Perhaps, each of you guys could produce one game that would allow many coaches to see each of your products. Shoot fire, we might pass out an evaluation sheet on whose sets were the best. We could let the players and the coaches rate them by writer. Now, I know that Mr. Gibbs would love to "grade" your questions for a change.

Jeremy Gibbs - we would love to see you guys come here. See the big town of Richland - you will walk away so impressed.


Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:19 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Coach Brown,

Thank you for putting me on the same tier as Matt, Charlie, and Jeffrey--the compliment is undeserved, but appreciated.

However, I have to admit that I'm still not entirely clear as to what you mean by "four sentences." As you no doubt already know, it's possible to write a four sentence question with 1 clue per sentence which goes for about 2 lines in 12 point font. It's also possible to write a four sentence question with 4 clues per sentence which goes for about 8 lines in 12 point font. Those are extremes, but I do want to make sure that when you say "four sentences," you mean four lines of printed font rather than anything that runs for four sentences.

I apologize for requesting so much clarification on this point, but I wanted to be absolutely sure about the requirements to avoid confusion.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89143/'>Charbroil</a>, Jun 9 2009, 10:07:17 PM.</div>


Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:06 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Charles,

Four lines across a sheet of paper is about the limit.

By the way, did you happen to see the scores of Sherwood High School at state? Not quite what they scored in districts or sectionals. Hmmmmm.

What do you think about the idea of each one of you guys writing one game each?

I am writing more pyramidal questions this year and they take much, much longer to write. For grammar, spelling, and mathematic computation, it is really difficult. For literature and geography, much, much easier. Time seems to be the main problem with writing this type of question. And time, of course, is MONEY, in this business.

Thank you for your valuable input. You have always acted very professionally on this board.

Bob


Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:01 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Quote:
What do you think about the idea of each one of you guys writing one game each?

I am not interested in working on this project. If you want to mirror a high quality JV tournament, I fully recommend getting in contact with Chris Carter to bid on the Fall Novice tournament that is being written right now by a team of motivated high schoolers and being overseen by college players like me and Gautam Kandlikar. The information on that set can be found at http://www.hsquizbowl.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7928


Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:56 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Charles (Dees),

I am a bit disappointed that you won't write one game that can be used to show MSHSAA and other coaches the beauty of pyramidal questions. This could be an awesome tournament, with teams playing on six or seven different games, provided by different people. A very unique idea, I think. It's one way to find out who is the best team on different sets of questions.

Come on, reconsider your decision. It doesn't take that long to write one game.

We already have one person from the board who will write some games.

Sincerely.

Bob Brown


Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:31 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Rather than play on 6 or 7 sets written by different people, why don't you get a good pyramidal set from HSAPQ or something? I've never written a question in my life and here you want me to write a packet for you?


Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:22 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
I am already editing a whole tournament for the February tournament at the University of Missouri, and I coedited the 2008 Prison Bowl set that I mostly stand by as an example of good high school writing, that you can read at http://quizbowlpackets.com/archive/prisonbowl/. I also am writing about a game's worth of questions for every tournament by HSAPQ (and hold them up as good examples of high school writing as well) and will continue to write questions for the PACE National Championship set. In addition, I currently am serving as one of the overseers of that very novice set I linked you to, meaning I will have input in it in a way that will let me quality check and approve all the questions. Thus, I think my resume of writing nearly a thousand questions in my life and having many of them up on the internet to see or in the workroom being written for future tournaments means I have plenty to stand by and show what I think good quizbowl should be like, especially considering I'm helping work on a very appropriate novice set that could easily be used at this tournament. I won't help write anything with computation tossups, and I won't help write anything in the MSHSAA format, and I think that is completely defensible. Now please stop bothering me to write for you.


Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:31 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Charles,

I wasn't aware that two messages was such a "bother for you."

I won't bother discussing this matter with you any more. I didn't realize that you were that busy.

Thanks anyway.

Mr. Brown


Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:14 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Discussion about tossup length has been moved to here.


Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:22 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
We will attend. Count us in for 1 varsity team. I will let you know if we have more interest as we get closer.


Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:56 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
We will be sending out emails this week about our tournament on October 17th.

If you didn't get one, contact me at this website.

So far,

Fort Zumwalt West is the only team entered.

Bob Brown
573-765-9971 (home)
573-855-7002 (cell)
573-765-3711 ext 113 (school)
questionbank@webound. com


Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:57 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Richland Tournament Updated List of Entries as of Saturday, Sept. 5th

1. Ft. Zumwalt West Varsity (maybe JV also)
2. Kickapoo (Varsity and JV)
3. Hallsville (Varsity and JV)
4. Salem (Varsity and JV)
5. Strafford (Varsity)
6. Clever (Varsity)
7. Richland (Varsity)

So far, we have ten confirmed entries. There is room for 14 more.

Bob Brown


Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:58 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
What is your definition of jv?


We don't consider our juniors jv, but if that is the trend (and I am gathering it is outside of St. Louis, we will do so for those tournaments).


Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:54 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
I just received two of the seven games for the Richland Tournament from Charles Hang and his associates. For those of you who like pyramidal questions, I think you will enjoy these questions. They are very answerable at the end, with tougher clues at the beginning. In addition, they aren't five mile long questions either. These are very good questions!


Here are the teams who are entered as of Tuesday, Sept. 15th:

Fort Zumwalt West (2 varsity teams)
Kickapoo (1 Var, 1 JV)
Hallsville (1 Var, 1 JV)
Salem (1 Var, 1 JV)
Strafford (1 Var)
Clever (1 Var)
Richland (1 Var)


There is still room for 13 more teams.

Any questions, feel free to call me at Richland High School (573-765-3711, ext. 113).

Sincerely,

Bob Brown


Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:06 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Is Charles Hang and Co. writing all of the sets?


Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:15 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Yes, they are writing all seven games for us.


Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:39 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Excellent! We are big fans of those guys!!!


Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:50 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Will these games consist of 2-part bonus? Is the Fine Arts category 6 toss-ups? (the major changes in the MSHSAA format)


Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:07 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Yes to the first, no to the second (per request of Coach Brown).


Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:13 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Which means we get 3 Language Arts questions instead? Here comes spelling!!!


Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:48 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
FZW Coach wrote:
Which means we get 3 Language Arts questions instead? Here comes spelling!!!
Umm...no, definitely not. Absolutely no spelling tossups and so far no spelling bonuses.

I'm sorry if that gives away a little bit of what the questions are like, but that should be a given. Coach Brown, please inform the attending teams that there will be no spelling tossups whatsoever.


Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:41 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Whew. I was worried momentarily.


Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:08 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
That's good. That's why we did away with that category.

Hopefully, besides grammar, there will be some inteteresting foreign language questions.


Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:15 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
FZW Coach wrote:
inteteresting foreign language questions.
no such thing


Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:09 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
ashkenaziCD wrote:
FZW Coach wrote:
inteteresting foreign language questions.
no such thing
Eh, I wouldn't agree with that--at a high school level, there are enough clues to write 4 lines of linguistically related clues about a language or country. I don't think it would be as feasible at a college level, but I think the ones we've written so far are decent.


Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:11 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Yeah, but a tossup on a language that uses important clues about their alphabet or some important studies of their language or notable things in them are considered to be linguistics tossups in a normal distribution. Anything that requires foreign language education to be able to answer correctly (i.e. all the foreign language questions that I've heard) has been extremely uninteresting, and badly written to boot. Also writing those kinds of questions severely limits your ability to have people convert them.


Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:25 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
The questions we're writing slant mostly toward the former, Charlie. Some do slant toward the latter (since it's somewhat hard to find that many topics in linguistics which are convertible by high schoolers), but certainly the giveaways should have 90+% conversion. Anyway, even those questions aren't only limited to foreign language clues, though they do dominate a bit more.

I agree that it's an imperfect system, though.


Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:03 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Admittedly this is coming from someone with no stake in this tournament, but doesn't the theory of wanting to compete in the district and state format lose some of its merit when you aren't using the same distribution? I'm curious what the rationale for this is.

Mr. Brown: I have a prior commitment, so I'm unfortunately not going to be able to come and moderate this time. Good luck with the tournament.


Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:51 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Charles,

Is it just you and Julia writing? Or is John or other Washington U. players helping out?



By the way, I do not think it is a bad thing to reward students who have studied a foreign language to be rewarded for doing so. Education should always be rewarded in this game. Students seem to enjoy answering questions from information they have learned in class more so than from information they have learned outside of class (they see the connections better of what we are doing in the classroom to a real life situation).


Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:17 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
It's me and Dan Donohue, whose a senior at St. Viator High School in Illinois. Julia theoretically is working with us, though I haven't gotten anything from her yet, so we'll see.


Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:17 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
FZW Coach wrote:
By the way, I do not think it is a bad thing to reward students who have studied a foreign language to be rewarded for doing so. Education should always be rewarded in this game. Students seem to enjoy answering questions from information they have learned in class more so than from information they have learned outside of class (they see the connections better of what we are doing in the classroom to a real life situation).
How on earth is answering a (poorly written) quizbowl question analogous to seeing how learning in school is applicable to the real world? Last I checked the way to apply foreign language instruction to the real world was not to participate in a contrived academic game, but rather to go and talk to people who also know that language.


Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:57 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
While I agree that a foreign language tossup (as opposed to a tossup on a foreign language) is probably a bad idea, I could imagine a decent bonus which incorporates translating a foreign word, etc. in addition to other parts that don't require foreign language experience and thus could serve as an easy part with high conversion.


Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:10 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Old Man Bob,

I might be able to come down that weekend and help out with the tournament. That is, if you need it.

Brian


Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:19 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Brian, are you aware of the meta-significance of your screen name in response to this post?

[Answer: October 17 is Eminem's birthday. And mine, actually...]


Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:36 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
socalcaptain wrote:
Brian, are you aware of the meta-significance of your screen name in response to this post?

[Answer: October 17 is Eminem's birthday. And mine, actually...]
Mines 6 days after Marshalls then. Close enough.


Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:49 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Bob,

I was wrong, I won't be able to make the tournament. We have Initiation night, and highway clean up that day.

Sorry,

Brian


Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:51 am
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Any update on this tournament? Teams? Format (please no byes)? Oh, how many buzzer systems do you need us to bring? We can bring 3 quality sets, if needed.


Are the questions already to go, Charles? Any help from Julia?


Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:03 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Questions are almost done, but minimal help.


Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:06 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
So, since this tournament is winding down as we speak, I imagine we'll soon here from the participants who want to discuss their experiences. Before that happens, though, I'd like to make the following comments.

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone who helped me make this tournament possible. These include Dan Donohue (a senior at St. Viator High School in IL), who wrote an incredible number of questions in the past few weeks, my collaborator Julia Price, as well as Jason Loy, Zach Foster (of George Mason University), Isaac Hirsch (of Blake--and a variety of other pseudonymous--High School), and Douglas Graebner, who wrote questions at the last minute to fill this tournament's needs. This couldn't have happened without you.

That being said, I am aware that this set had a number of flaws (including half as many replacement questions as it should have), and that is entirely my own fault--I didn't budget time as well as I should have and I didn't ask for help as soon as I needed to; that's entirely my own responsibility and I apologize. In addition, I also apologize for the repeats, though I'd like to note that in many cases, while answers were repeated or mentioned several times (ex. a tossup asking for a work and later a bonus asking for that work's author), the clues used were generally unique, with some unfortunate exceptions.

Now, to the questions themselves.

Personally, I think these questions fulfilled their target difficulty--which was high JV/low Varsity, or roughly the difficulty of an NAQT A set. That being said, I did get a text from a participant at the tournament mentioning that some of the questions were "frustrating."

While I'll have to wait to ask her what exactly she meant by that, I imagine it has something to do with the answer selection. In writing these questions, I (as well as my cowriters) consciously worked to include topics in subjects that don't come up as often in Missouri but are both important in an objective sense and also come up frequently in national quality Quiz Bowl--such as NAQT, HSAPQ, and the many high quality housewritten tournaments out there. These topics included world (especially non European) literature, additional breadth in the fine arts, and most importantly, social sciences such as psychology, sociology, linguistics, and economics as well as world religions and philosophy. While some of these answers are probably new to most of the teams, I can assure everyone that they were all from the easiest possible choices available for the topics at hand.

Of course, it's quite possible that I'm reading too much into a 30 character text message and everyone loved my answer choices. That would be great.

Finally, while I should have mentioned this earlier, this was the distribution for the questions:

10/4 Social Studies*:
2/1 American History
3/1 European History
2/1 World History
3/0 Misc. Social Studies (Religion, Economics, Government, etc.)

10/4 Literature**:
3/1 American Literature
3/1 British Literature
4/1 World Literature

10/4 Science***
3/1 Chemistry
3/1 Physics
2/1 Biology
2/1 Misc. Science

10/4 Mathematics****:
7/3 Computational Math
3/1 Theoretical Math

3/1 Fine Arts:
The subdistribution was pretty random on this one, and was limited to making sure that there was at least one music or one visual art question--it could go from 2/1 VA and 1/0 Music to 2/1 Music and 1/0 VA.

3/1 Language Arts:
This included mostly languages, dialects, countries, grammar, and occasional questions on letters with two or three bonuses with one spelling part.

4/2 Misc.
This included popular culture but also various academic topics and an occasional funny common link--ex., the questions that asked about people with a certain name.

All values are within +/- 1 of actual per packet values, since some topics (ex. geography) weren't explicitly mentioned but did come up. I'm fairly sure this is fairly accurate, though, unless I made a mistake (there maybe a few, but this should be accurate)

*The final bonus for SS could be in any of the existing topics or another topic, such as geography

**Mythology replaced a few of the bonuses and tossups, also, the the final bonus for literature could be in any of the existing topics or another topic

***All science was theoretical science, though there was some science biography and some of the computational math (1/0) was more computational science.

Addendum: Fort Zumwalt West won the JV bracket. My friend told me that there was "too much math," which I'm somewhat confused about. I'll have to ask about it later.


Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:50 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
By the way, who are all of the guest accounts reading this thread? If you're affiliated with the tournament (or even if you aren't), I'd love to hear from you about your impressions, and we on the Message Board would love to see you become an active member. So do sign up.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89143/'>Charbroil</a>, Oct 17 2009, 03:18:18 PM.</div>


Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:17 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
I hope that everyone involved enjoyed this tournament and encourage participants to use it as a springboard into competing on quality pyramidal questions. I appreciate Charles' efforts to incorporate topics that are not often asked in Missouri but are prevalent in good tournaments nationally.


Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:51 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Jason Loy wrote:
I hope that everyone involved enjoyed this tournament and encourage participants to use it as a springboard into competing on quality pyramidal questions.
This brings up another point I forgot to mention. While we did our best to provide the highest quality questions possible for this tournament, I remain of the opinion that it would have been better to use a set by a provider such as NAQT or HSAPQ for this tournament.

There are too many inherent constraints within the MSHSAA distribution (including its length) for it to be an ideal distribution regardless of who writes the questions (because 3 line questions for varsity play are simply too short to provide a quality number of clues).

Thus, I do not intend on seeking to be the question provider for this tournament next year, and I hope that Coach Brown will move on to a provider such as NAQT or HSAPQ, having (hopefully) seen the positive nature of pyramidal questions and a greater emphasis on the use of theoretical math.

After all, while I understand the use of MSHSAA format in Conference play, given the smaller size of Conferences and the format's use in the State tournament, there seems to be little reason to adhere to it at an invitational event, especially given that high quality questions in another format would do just as well to prepare teams for a higher quality State tournament (or even the less optimal one we have at the moment) as high quality questions in the MSHSAA format--especially if invitational questions written in the MSHSAA format weren't as good because of the format's inherent weaknesses.


Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:04 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Addendum: I would be willing to take on additional contracts of this sort in the future if the issue at hand was that the tournament director lacked the financial resources to contract with NAQT/HSAPQ for questions, since I am willing to do this kind of thing if the alternative is, say, Questions Galore.


Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:25 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Charbroil wrote:
Addendum: I would be willing to take on additional contracts of this sort in the future if the issue at hand was that the tournament director lacked the financial resources to contract with NAQT/HSAPQ for questions, since I am willing to do this kind of thing if the alternative is, say, Questions Galore.
I don't remember seeing anything about this upthread, but is the set used at this tournament potentially open for use elsewhere in the state? In other words, is it cleared for public discussion yet?


Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:26 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
Oh yeah--forgot about that.

Because I do plan on reusing the questions in additional tournaments, I'd greatly appreciate it if all discussion remained question non-specific. If anyone has anything they'd like to tell me about specific questions, please email me at charleshang228 [at] yahoo.com


Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:32 pm
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Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
It was a well run tournament! Great questions. I love the two-part bonus; it keeps the game moving. More analysis later. I am off to hear the 1812 Overture at the St. Louis Symphony!

Varsity Scores
Round 1
Clever 100, FZW 510
Hallsville 330, Norwood 280
Kickapoo 280, Salem 270
Richland 380, Strafford 130
Round 2
Clever 200, Salem 320
FZW 450, Richland 260
Hallsville 350, Kickapoo 150
Norwood 230, Strafford 130
Round 3
Clever 180, Richland 360
FZW 510, Salem 170
Hallsville 300, Strafford 150
Kickapoo 200, Norwood 250
Semifinals
FZW 500, Norwood 170
Richland 360, Hallsville 270
Finals
FZW 360, Richland 200

Junior Varsity Scores
Round 1
El Dorado 160, Hallsville 280
FZW 490, Waynesville 10
Kickapoo 140, Salem 200
Round 2
El Dorado 160, Kickapoo 190
FZW 430, Hallsville 200
Salem 180, Waynesville 110
Round 3
El Dorado 70, FZW 440
Hallsville 280, Salem 220
Kickapoo 240, Waynesville 90
Semifinals
FZW 420, Kickapoo 110
Hallsville 370, Salem 170
Finals
FZW 320, Hallsville 190


I will compile individual statistics and other information for my Observations packet tomorrow.

Bob and Roger, thanks for a great tournament! We love the trophies! We were able to present them to our assistant principal who happened to be in the building when we returned.

Charles and company, thanks for quality questions! This is exactly what MSHSAA is hoping to see - 50 question set, math, great questions with multiple clues! We loved the 2-part bonus questions since they were actually real questions rather than just tell the author of a book!


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89041/'>FZW Coach</a>, Oct 18 2009, 10:54:17 AM.</div>


Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:57 pm
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Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 1039
Post Richland Varsity/JV Tournament
So...I don't suppose anyone knows why we wrote 7 packets when only 5 were used? If we'd known that sooner, there wouldn't have been any formatting issues with this packet (not to mention it would have been done sooner) because we would have been able to proofread and edit rather than write two additional packets...

Also, did you play your B team (which if I recall correctly, had quite a few Juniors) as JV?


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89143/'>Charbroil</a>, Oct 17 2009, 06:02:14 PM.</div>


Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:00 pm
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