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Class 4 District 15

Tournament announcements, results, and discussion about specific tournaments.
PHSouth
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Post by PHSouth »

I think there should be a way to split NKC and Liberty up. Or, as Spencer Fish suggested, a new way for how teams qualify for state. What do you think is a fair solution to the problem? Or, do you think the situation is acceptable as it is?
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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

A good solution is to decide that NAQT State is a much fairer state championship and not care about MSHSAA.

FishyFreshman
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Post by FishyFreshman »

Welcome to the board. Note that board rules require you to identify yourself in every thread you post in. The easiest way to do this is to put your name and school in your signature.

NKCtrashman
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Post by NKCtrashman »

What Charlie said

DIoanis
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Post by DIoanis »

ashkenaziCD wrote:A good solution is to decide that NAQT State is a much fairer state championship and not care about MSHSAA.
The one good thing about MSHSAA State is that it is based on where the school is located within the state to get the 8 teams. Even though (and I'm talking mostly about class 4) the teams in the final 4 end up from the KC or STL area, at least areas of the state have teams at state (Nixa and Jackson). NAQT State could only have the top 8 teams from KC or STL and the final 4 could all be a single area. The purpose of a state championship is to have teams from across the state playing, not 2 teams that are cross town rivals playing for the chance to be best in the state; so I'm not a big fan of a NKC/Liberty or Ladue/Clayton match up at the championship game, but this year's game of NKC/Ladue was ideal. (in fact with the outcome of the final 4 at state this year NKC would have had to play in the title game, since Truman missed the cut and 3 of the 4 were from the STL area)

I am NOT a fan of QG and I'm not saying that NAQT State should never been the state championship, above MSHSAA. Personally I would like to see a change though in how the schools are grouped before I support NAQT State to overtake MSHSAA. There needs to be classes based on the size of the school (and more then just the 4 under MSHSAA, maybe 5 but no more then 6) and the schools should be placed in divisions based on where they are in the state like districts and play round robin style in the division. Top 8 make the semifinals just like at any other tournament where the top scoring team plays the 8th seed, 2nd plays 7th, and so on. Then you have the final 4 and then teams that win that round play in the title game and the losers play in the 3rd place game. It could be spread out over a week or 2, just like what MSHSAA did with districts, sectionals, and state. At the moment NAQT State is just like any other tournament simply because of the way it sets the teams up like other local tournaments. Fix this and I will the first one on NAQT State's bandwagon.


EDIT: Sorry this might seem that I'm just going on and I hope most of you understand what I was trying to say


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Compe ... DIoanis</a>, May 15 2009, 09:05:22 PM.</div>

FishyFreshman
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Post by FishyFreshman »

trumanboy wrote:The purpose of a state championship is to have teams from across the state playing, not 2 teams that are cross town rivals playing for the chance to be best in the state; so I'm not a big fan of a NKC/Liberty or Ladue/Clayton match up at the championship game, but this year's game of NKC/Ladue was ideal.
Correct if I am wrong, but isn't the purpose of a state championship to have the best teams in the state competing? If all the best teams in the state are from one area, then the state championship should have all of the teams from that area.

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Post by DIoanis »

FishyFreshman wrote:Correct if I am wrong, but isn't the purpose of a state championship to have the best teams in the state competing? If all the best teams in the state are from one area, then the state championship should have all of the teams from that area.
Yes you do have a point, but I just think teams from across the state need to have an equal chance at the state championship. Look at MSHSAA State this year, 3 of the 4 teams were from STL (which supports your point) but under MSHSAA teams from the Springfield and Cape Giradeau areas played at state as well. If NAQT State was the actual state championship Nixa or Jackson (i'm guessing here) would never have came. Yes great teams did not make it to Columbia this year, but that's becuase they are in a area with other great teams. It's like the electoral college in the elections of presidents, it's not the best system and it may not make the best sense but it gets the job done.

For a state championship(at least in the preliminaries) teams from across the state need to be represented- end of story. If the semifinals/finals end up having teams from one single area that is no big deal. I'm just saying it needs to be fair to all parts of the state.

FishyFreshman
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Post by FishyFreshman »

How is NAQT state not fair to those teams? They can show up just like everyone else. MSHSAA state is not "getting the job done" if the best 8 teams are not represented in favor of 8 teams from different areas.

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Post by PHSouth »

I agree w/ Spencer. The best teams should be at state. There seems to be no feasible solution to the problem, however. ...Perhaps more informed districting..... I have no information on this at all. Do the people who make districts know the team's abilities? Or, do they base it purely of geographical centrality?

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Post by DIoanis »

Spencer we are not going see eye to eye here. MSHSAA IS getting the job done. How many schools played at NAQT State? Now compare that number that played at MSHSAA at all 3 levels in all 4 classes. If you take all the schools that went to state in all 4 classes (4 classes multplied by 8 teams per class = 32 teams [and I'm not even the math guy on our team lol]) I'm sure 32 teams is more then the number of schools that played at NAQT state. At the sectional level one would have to double the number of teams to 64....Sure more teams could sign up for NAQT state and I'm not saying to not play at it. I'm just saying that AT THE MOMENT the way MSHSAA allows the most teams to participate in the the process of getting a state championship.
And isn't that a good thing for the sake of quizbowl?

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Post by DIoanis »

Sam I think it's based on geography of the area, but I'm not the person to ask. Why else would two of the state's top teams, which just happen to be a few miles apart, be in the same district for years?

PHSouth
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Post by PHSouth »

Well, I believe Liberty is building a second HS. Either next year or the one after that, Liberty will be split in half. Perhaps that'll move them down to a lower division (based on size of school). That'd be interesting.

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Post by DIoanis »

Well Savannah moved up this year to class 4 and they have a school population of like 700 some or so (I'm sure someone can check the real figure). Liberty or Blue Springs, I'm not sure which one is first, are the largest schools in the KC area with over 2000 students in each building (spencer or anyone from Liberty can change that figure if it's wrong, just going by memory). I don't think the new school or Liberty will be in class 3, that's a safe bet. But perhaps it might change the teams in the districts and sectionals, or maybe William Chrisman will be moved into Truman's district and the new Liberty HS will take it's place (which would make the best sense if MSHSAA wanted to form districts based on where schools are located, since Chrisman was the only school south of the river to play in a sectional [D15/16] that went up to the Iowa border while if you go 3 miles south on Noland Rd you would be in a smaller sectional [D13/14]).

FishyFreshman
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Post by FishyFreshman »

Liberty High School has around 2200 students this year I think, and that's just sophomores, juniors, and seniors. Our freshman are at the junior high. Each incoming class is getting bigger too, so I doubt either Liberty school will be Class 3.

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

There's nothing inherently good about maximal participation if it's in very bad quizbowl. NAQT state this year had 2 very important features - representation from more top teams than MSHSAA state did, and much higher quality question/tournament format. The numbers of teams attending NAQT state were certainly lower than in the MSHSAA series, but it was in a worse location (it's moving to Columbia for 2010) and it still had a much stronger field, which is far more important in saying you have a legitimate state championship than a larger field. Also, if you didn't notice, the tournament is very much open to the best teams from all over the state for both the preliminaries and the playoffs/consolation rounds (all 11 of them that were run, something MSHSAA doesn't come close to touching). NKC and Savannah made the finals, yet Francis Howell Central, Parkway Central, and Ladue from the other end of the state placed 3rd-5th, and teams from other areas like Helias, Richland, Dixon, and Fordland in the Springfield area certainly gave us a field that had many regions of the state represented. The only places that didn't seem represented were Northeast Missouri and Southeast Missouri, which are both regions with much less active (and fewer) teams than anywhere else in the state, so while I welcome teams like Kirksville to attend NAQT state, those regions not showing up isn't exactly the biggest concern in the world. I think you are wrong that areas represented should trump quality of the field when determining if a state championship is legitimate, but even by your own criteria I think NAQT state fit the bill this year.

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socalcaptain
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Post by socalcaptain »

I would say that as long as NAQT State has a wide and significantly large field, it would be legit to pick the state champion.

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Post by DIoanis »

It's not a matter of which questions are better, NAQT wins there. I just think that for a state championship there needs to be an equal number of schools from areas around the state playing at it and if in the end it's 2 schools from STL or KC playing each other that's ok, at least there is representation from all parts of the state. I'm sorry, I just don't understand the point of wanting schools that are in the same area to travel across Missouri so they could play each other. The point of a state championship is to play schools from across the state, not teams you could play at any local tournament.

Personaly I would think that that best situation would be for MSHSAA to allow NAQT to write questions for Districts/Sectionals/State (never going to happen right?). That way the terrible questions are gone, more teams are playing better quizbowl, and it's all under MSHSAA. Remember quizbowl is a step above other activies becuase it's sanctioned by MSHSAA and that many of your coaches (Camp at Liberty, Park Hill's coach) are getting paied by their districts the same amount coaching this activity as football and basketball coaches at those schools (something our coach loves to bring up since the Independence School District does not give him the same amout as our football/basketball coaches). MSHSAA does have it's problems, but if fixed quizbowl could work under it.

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Post by DIoanis »

socalcaptain wrote:I would say that as long as NAQT State has a wide and significantly large field, it would be legit to pick the state champion.
That's what I'm saying...larger field of teams from all over the state, something MSHSAA can do AT THE MOMENT that NAQT can't.

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

The point of a state championship is to play schools from across the state, not teams you could play at any local tournament.
You still don't seem to understand that this isn't actually the point of a state championship tournament - instead it is to give the best teams in the state a chance to play for the trophies that say they are 3rd, or first, or whatever place, in the whole state.

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socalcaptain
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Post by socalcaptain »

What Charlie just said.

And, as long as every school has a fair chance to play, then it is just as legitimate, if not probably more than, the MSHSAA state championship. Given that I suppose you could argue that not every school has a fair chance to play in NAQT state, you have somewhat of a point. But it is an open field, and nothing prevents us from opening it up to a larger number of schools if we can get enough staff and rooms. And entry fees are not exorbitant by any means.

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Post by DIoanis »

ashkenaziCD wrote:
The point of a state championship is to play schools from across the state, not teams you could play at any local tournament.
You still don't seem to understand that this isn't actually the point of a state championship tournament - instead it is to give the best teams in the state a chance to play for the trophies that say they are 3rd, or first, or whatever place, in the whole state.
I do understand that Charlie, You don't understand that I understand and still chose to think and believe the way I do. I think there must be equal footing for all teams around the state to play for a state championship. That trumps great teams missing out of getting to state, becuase if all the best teams from one area make it to the state championship level it's not a "true" state championship. That's what I think and I'm pretty stubborn so I'm going to stick by what I said

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Post by FishyFreshman »

The Earth is flat and despite the overwhelming evidence and arguments against that, I am very stubborn and will stick to that no matter what.

DIoanis
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Post by DIoanis »

socalcaptain wrote:...as long as every school has a fair chance to play, then it is just as legitimate, if not probably more than, the MSHSAA state championship. Given that I suppose you could argue that not every school has a fair chance to play in NAQT state, you have somewhat of a point. But it is an open field, and nothing prevents us from opening it up to a larger number of schools if we can get enough staff and rooms.....
If NAQT State had a Class type system like MSHSAA (small schools play other small schools, large schools vs. other large schools) and had round robin rounds based on where schools were located I would suport NAQT State over MSHSAA State 100%. I would imagine that would cost a mint to pay for and that's something I'm guessing you don't have a lot of (money, not mints like peppermints :-) ) but that can be understood your a college team, MSHSAA gets millions from Jefferson City...

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Post by DIoanis »

FishyFreshman wrote:The Earth is flat and despite the overwhelming evidence and arguments against that, I am very stubborn and will stick to that no matter what.
That sounds about right :D.

I'm just saying this is what I believe and can usually see both sides of an issue but I can't here. To me the evdience is clear that MSHSAA is better because of the number of teams involved. If we wanted to talk about quality of questions I would pick NAQT in a heartbeat


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Compe ... DIoanis</a>, May 15 2009, 11:31:28 PM.</div>

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

The fact that MSHSAA runs their state tournament atrociously on the front of questions AND format automatically means they can not be a legitimate state championship under any fair criteria.

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Post by DeckardCain »

trumanboy wrote:I'm sorry, I just don't understand the point of wanting schools that are in the same area to travel across Missouri so they could play each other.
Later, trumanboy wrote:
trumanboy wrote:If NAQT State... had round robin rounds based on where schools were located I would suport NAQT State over MSHSAA State 100%.
I'm completely lost here. You don't want teams to play other teams from their region, but you want NAQT State to group teams based on location?

I'm going to confess, I really don't think you know what you're talking about here. Had Truman made the trip to NAQT State and made the top bracket, as I predict you would have, you would have played the following teams:

Dixon
Fordland
Francis Howell Central A
Francis Howell Central B
Helias
Ladue
North Kansas City
Parkway Central
Parkway West A
Richland
Savannah

Earlier, you claimed that:
trumanboy wrote:The point of a state championship is to play schools from across the state, not teams you could play at any local tournament.
How many of these teams did you get to play this year? I'm guessing no more than 3 or 4.

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Post by DIoanis »

Long day for me and I'm tired sorry...

ok, I did say that NAQT State should have grouped teams based on where they are from in the same way MSHSAA groups schools into districts where they are located. NAQT State should form divisions based on school size and location, and have said divisions play round robin style. The winner of the divison would go on to the championship rounds (semifinals/finals, using debate jargon in there sorry) I was not clear here earlier and I apologize. If it's still not clear I can try to explain better.

We would have played Richland, Dixon, and Fordland? Those are class 1 or 2 schools right? See how is that fair to schools that small to play bigger schools? You don't send Class AA Wichita to play the NY Yankees!!! I would fix this where only small schools played other small schools, large schools played other large schools...


Actually we only played 2....Ladue at MSHSAA state and Savannah 3 times (once at NKC NAQT and 2 times at Lexington). We would have gone to NAQT State but I think me and Michael had marching band or something the first of november (the date of NAQT State right?)


FYI: In my 3 years in the Truman program, we have never played NKC anywhere (save Maple Woods, but that doesn't count) I find that strange....

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Post by WillHack »

Basing games on geographic distribution is an unreliable method, and there is no reason (other than the trump of logistics) for it to take place. Why should it be a good thing to equally represent different areas of the state? Look at it this way:

Suppose that there were a World Quizbowl Championship. All of the world's best teams come from major metropolitan areas, like London and New York and Beijing. They also come from areas with better educational systems. There are very few good teams from large swathes of the world, such as Africa and Mongolia. Should these places have as many teams in the World Quizbowl Championship as the places with good teams? Should Siberia get the same number of teams as the USA? Should Antarctica get the same number of teams as Europe?

This is an extreme example, surely, but it proves the point that the teams participating in a Championship event should not be chosen geographically.

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Post by socalcaptain »

SEMO played Mizzou in football. Just saying.

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Post by Charlie Dees »

We would have played Richland, Dixon, and Fordland? Those are class 1 or 2 schools right? See how is that fair to schools that small to play bigger schools?
1) There is a small school championship that is given out to the top placing team that has 500 or fewer students enrolled from grades 10-12. This allows small schools to get recognition within the wider spectrum of the tournament.
2) It is not doing a service to people to segregate schools. A state championship means the best team in the state gets the award. I think it's actually kind of insulting to small schools to tell them they can't expect to compete with large schools, when Richland and Hallsville placed 3rd and 4th at Rolla Fall (ahead of NKC and Parkway Central). If a small school is good enough to be the best in the state, they should be given a platform to prove it, not just be brushed aside into a second class grouping. To think that is fair is to do a disservice to those students, because this game is played the exact same way for everybody. Do you also think that Nationals should just announce that the best school there will always have more than 1,000 students and send everyone else into a consolation bracket instead of let teams prove who is the best in the country?

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Post by DeckardCain »

trumanboy wrote:We would have played Richland, Dixon, and Fordland? Those are class 1 or 2 schools right? See how is that fair to schools that small to play bigger schools? You don't send Class AA Wichita to play the NY Yankees!!! I would fix this where only small schools played other small schools, large schools played other large schools...
I'm going to answer this question by directing it in the opposite direction: why shouldn't small schools who are good enough to compete with the large schools be given an opportunity to do so? Richland has beaten enough Class 4 schools over the years that you'd have to be crazy to take them lightly, and in fact beat Clayton, the third place team in MSHSAA Class 4, at this very tournament. Fordland beat Clayton as well, yet didn't even qualify for state in MSHSAA Class 2, which should bring the MSHSAA system into serious question for you if nothing else does. There are numerous examples of teams in smaller classes that had legitimate claims to being the top team in the state yet didn't get to contest that at a state tournament (Savannah and Westminster Christian circa five or so years ago, Richland and Koshkonong from the early part of this decade, and so on); why shouldn't they? Your claim that small schools don't deserve a shot at competing with the big boys is extremely disingenuous, and I hope you'll reconsider it in light of this post.

I have numerous other issues to bring up, which will be coming in a later post.

edit: There was also a small-school championship at this tournament, which we were able to do without segregating the small schools, something that's impossible in MSHSAA format.

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Post by DIoanis »

ashkenaziCD wrote:1) There is a small school championship that is given out to the top placing team that has 500 or fewer students enrolled from grades 10-12. This allows small schools to get recognition within the wider spectrum of the tournament.
2) It is not doing a service to people to segregate schools. A state championship means the best team in the state gets the award. I think it's actually kind of insulting to small schools to tell them they can't expect to compete with large schools, when Richland and Hallsville placed 3rd and 4th at Rolla Fall (ahead of NKC and Parkway Central). If a small school is good enough to be the best in the state, they should be given a platform to prove it, not just be brushed aside into a second class grouping. To think that is fair is to do a disservice to those students, because this game is played the exact same way for everybody. Do you also think that Nationals should just announce that the best school there will always have more than 1,000 students and send everyone else into a consolation bracket instead of let teams prove who is the best in the country?
I am aware about the small school championship at nationals.

I don't agree with you here Charlie, and I think we had this conversation before. It can be unfair to smaller schools. Yes there are schools like Richland who can scare larger schools, but for one school like Richland how many play larger schools and get killed by them. I know Liberty has played St. Joe Christian more then ones (LSN Tournament this past year I think maybe....) and the victories were often one sided. Truman played Pilot Grove at Smithville this year and it was a blow out, and this was a team that made it to MSHSAA State this year.

I wouldn't call it a 2nd class grouping...more like a chance to show how the school is better at an activity then other schools that are around the same size. I would not think they are being brushed away either...

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Post by DIoanis »

DeckardCain wrote:I'm going to answer this question by directing it in the opposite direction: why shouldn't small schools who are good enough to compete with the large schools be given an opportunity to do so? Richland has beaten enough Class 4 schools over the years that you'd have to be crazy to take them lightly, and in fact beat Clayton, the third place team in MSHSAA Class 4, at this very tournament. Fordland beat Clayton as well, yet didn't even qualify for state in MSHSAA Class 2, which should bring the MSHSAA system into serious question for you if nothing else does. There are numerous examples of teams in smaller classes that had legitimate claims to being the top team in the state yet didn't get to contest that at a state tournament (Savannah and Westminster Christian circa five or so years ago, Richland and Koshkonong from the early part of this decade, and so on); why shouldn't they? ur claim that small schools don't deserve a shot at competing with the big boys is extremely disingenuous, and I hope you'll reconsider it in light of this post.

I have numerous other issues to bring up, which will be coming in a later post.

edit: There was also a small-school championship at this tournament, which we were able to do without segregating the small schools, something that's impossible in MSHSAA format.
I'm just defending the smaller schools that can not challenge larger schools but can keep up with teams from schools their own size. Look at this years Class 2 championship. St. Paul Lutheran almost beat Richland, which like you said has beat larger schools.


I just don't think it's fair to smaller schools. This is something I am willing to look into because I am ingorant of NAQT tournaments as we have only been to 2 offical ones in 2 years (but have played on NAQT questions more often then not, because of Conference and Quads). It just sounds strange how smaller schools could have a smaller-school championship while playing larger schools, but if it's done fairly it's not that big of a deal

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Post by Charlie Dees »

I suppose it's completely unfair every time that NKC beats Parkway Central by 405 points, or Hickman beats Helias by 340, or Thomas Jefferson beats Lakeside (#2 in the country that year) by 730 points, right Dakota?

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Post by DIoanis »

ashkenaziCD wrote:I suppose it's completely unfair every time that NKC beats Parkway Central by 405 points, or Hickman beats Helias by 340, or Thomas Jefferson beats Lakeside (#2 in the country that year) by 730 points
How is it unfair? NKC and Parkway West are both in Class 4 as well as Helias and Hickman. I'm guessing Lakeside is not in Missouri because I could not find the school on the MSHSAA website, so I can not and will not comment on them losing to TJ by 750 points. I'm saying that it would be unfair for schools THE SIZE OF TJ to play schools the size of NKC and Hickman. There are schools that could keep up with larger schools and could beat them, but not most.

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Post by Charlie Dees »

Look, here's the whole point - the gist of your argument boils down to "worse teams should be prevented from losing to better teams." This is ridiculous given that the whole point of this game is to have worse teams lose to better teams. To insist small schools never be given a chance (and also be denied opportunities to see good teams in action and potentially improve) is bad for those teams. We need to stop treating small schools like second class teams and start teaching them how to really improve the way the good teams do instead. I'm aware that you are absurdly bullheaded about being wrong so my point will probably never get across to you, but school size is not what determines skill of a quizbowl team.

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Post by scphilli »

PHSouth wrote:Well, I believe Liberty is building a second HS. Either next year or the one after that, Liberty will be split in half. Perhaps that'll move them down to a lower division (based on size of school). That'd be interesting.
Yeah cuz look at how much that dropped down Park Hill when it split into two thanks to the casino money a decade ago...

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Post by scphilli »

Oh and as far as this other nonsense goes...

I just...weep. Not actual tears, just inside. That's all.

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Post by PHSouth »

No one forces people to go to casinos!

Charbroil
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Class 4 District 15

Post by Charbroil »

PHSouth wrote:No one forces people to go to casinos!
I don't think that's the issue--Sean was just commenting that just as a new school funded by casino money didn't drop Park Hill to Class 3, a new Liberty High School won't drop it either.

FordATeam/CC
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Class 4 District 15

Post by FordATeam/CC »

DeckardCain wrote:
trumanboy wrote:We would have played Richland, Dixon, and Fordland? Those are class 1 or 2 schools right? See how is that fair to schools that small to play bigger schools? You don't send Class AA Wichita to play the NY Yankees!!! I would fix this where only small schools played other small schools, large schools played other large schools...
I'm going to answer this question by directing it in the opposite direction: why shouldn't small schools who are good enough to compete with the large schools be given an opportunity to do so? Richland has beaten enough Class 4 schools over the years that you'd have to be crazy to take them lightly, and in fact beat Clayton, the third place team in MSHSAA Class 4, at this very tournament. Fordland beat Clayton as well, yet didn't even qualify for state in MSHSAA Class 2, which should bring the MSHSAA system into serious question for you if nothing else does. There are numerous examples of teams in smaller classes that had legitimate claims to being the top team in the state yet didn't get to contest that at a state tournament (Savannah and Westminster Christian circa five or so years ago, Richland and Koshkonong from the early part of this decade, and so on); why shouldn't they? Your claim that small schools don't deserve a shot at competing with the big boys is extremely disingenuous, and I hope you'll reconsider it in light of this post.

I have numerous other issues to bring up, which will be coming in a later post.

edit: There was also a small-school championship at this tournament, which we were able to do without segregating the small schools, something that's impossible in MSHSAA format.
While I enjoy being able to say we beat another upper class state trophy winner, what I personally REALLY want is more of an opportunity to play small schools that consistently make it to state, but we don't get the chance to beat. I believe most of these schools are scared off by the fact that they will play the larger schools at NAQT state. Hopefully the more centralized location (at Mizzou) will help bring more schools into the fold. However, unless more small schools attend next season, a return to NAQT may not happen for us.

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scphilli
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Class 4 District 15

Post by scphilli »

FordATeam/CC wrote:
DeckardCain wrote:
trumanboy wrote:We would have played Richland, Dixon, and Fordland? Those are class 1 or 2 schools right? See how is that fair to schools that small to play bigger schools? You don't send Class AA Wichita to play the NY Yankees!!! I would fix this where only small schools played other small schools, large schools played other large schools...
I'm going to answer this question by directing it in the opposite direction: why shouldn't small schools who are good enough to compete with the large schools be given an opportunity to do so? Richland has beaten enough Class 4 schools over the years that you'd have to be crazy to take them lightly, and in fact beat Clayton, the third place team in MSHSAA Class 4, at this very tournament. Fordland beat Clayton as well, yet didn't even qualify for state in MSHSAA Class 2, which should bring the MSHSAA system into serious question for you if nothing else does. There are numerous examples of teams in smaller classes that had legitimate claims to being the top team in the state yet didn't get to contest that at a state tournament (Savannah and Westminster Christian circa five or so years ago, Richland and Koshkonong from the early part of this decade, and so on); why shouldn't they? Your claim that small schools don't deserve a shot at competing with the big boys is extremely disingenuous, and I hope you'll reconsider it in light of this post.

I have numerous other issues to bring up, which will be coming in a later post.

edit: There was also a small-school championship at this tournament, which we were able to do without segregating the small schools, something that's impossible in MSHSAA format.
While I enjoy being able to say we beat another upper class state trophy winner, what I personally REALLY want is more of an opportunity to play small schools that consistently make it to state, but we don't get the chance to beat. I believe most of these schools are scared off by the fact that they will play the larger schools at NAQT state. Hopefully the more centralized location (at Mizzou) will help bring more schools into the fold. However, unless more small schools attend next season, a return to NAQT may not happen for us.
I very much hope you reconsider. As Matt said, there will always be serparate recognition for small schools at a tournament of this sort. In addition, assuming the larger schools you would compete against are better (and it is not necessarily a given that they would be as the recent NAQT state suggests), it might be in your best interests to play schools of a higher quality now to acclimate yourself to districts and state later, if that is the focus of your season. While it might not be the most successful you ever are at a tournament, it might be helpful (assuming you don't excel in the field of larger schools) to use it as a yardstick for what you can do to improve and thus be at a competitive advantage to small schools that did not attend.

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PenforPrez
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Post by PenforPrez »

trumanboy wrote:The one good thing about MSHSAA State is that it is based on where the school is located within the state to get the 8 teams. Even though (and I'm talking mostly about class 4) the teams in the final 4 end up from the KC or STL area, at least areas of the state have teams at state (Nixa and Jackson). NAQT State could only have the top 8 teams from KC or STL and the final 4 could all be a single area. The purpose of a state championship is to have teams from across the state playing, not 2 teams that are cross town rivals playing for the chance to be best in the state; so I'm not a big fan of a NKC/Liberty or Ladue/Clayton match up at the championship game, but this year's game of NKC/Ladue was ideal. (in fact with the outcome of the final 4 at state this year NKC would have had to play in the title game, since Truman missed the cut and 3 of the 4 were from the STL area)

I am NOT a fan of QG and I'm not saying that NAQT State should never been the state championship, above MSHSAA. Personally I would like to see a change though in how the schools are grouped before I support NAQT State to overtake MSHSAA. There needs to be classes based on the size of the school (and more then just the 4 under MSHSAA, maybe 5 but no more then 6) and the schools should be placed in divisions based on where they are in the state like districts and play round robin style in the division. Top 8 make the semifinals just like at any other tournament where the top scoring team plays the 8th seed, 2nd plays 7th, and so on. Then you have the final 4 and then teams that win that round play in the title game and the losers play in the 3rd place game. It could be spread out over a week or 2, just like what MSHSAA did with districts, sectionals, and state. At the moment NAQT State is just like any other tournament simply because of the way it sets the teams up like other local tournaments. Fix this and I will the first one on NAQT State's bandwagon.


EDIT: Sorry this might seem that I'm just going on and I hope most of you understand what I was trying to say
NAQT State was my dream for a lot of years, and it took a lot of struggle (and a major MSHSAA rule change) to accomplish. Until school administrators voted to allow automatic qualifying, NAQT State wasn't even possible. I spent two years going back and forth with Rob Hentzel trying to find a name for this tournament that NAQT would find acceptable. The automatic qualifying rule made the problem moot.

I mention that because my dream for NAQT State was to have all of the good teams in Missouri come together in one place, go head-to-head on a good set of questions, and have one team emerge as the best. We've never had one particular event in Missouri that would be respected as such, and that's what I've always hoped to accomplish. We came close to that with NAQT State this year, and none was more pleased than I.

I personally have little opposition to MSHSAA State doing classifications as such; most states do that with their athletics. I looked in the MSHSAA big book o'rules, and MSHSAA allows for a maximum of five classes in any activity. The number of classes is based on how many schools are officially listed as offering that activity. The MSHSAA book lists 444 high schools in Missouri as offering a quiz bowl program; hence why we have four classes. Don't ask me; that's what the book says.

To expand to five classes, an activity has to have 514 schools participating. Which means we would need 70 new teams to appear out of nowhere. Problem is, adding a 5A class would not solve the problem at hand. The best solution I've heard was the original proposal for Sectionals--having the top two teams from each Sectional go to State. But MSHSAA screwed it up as only MSHSAA can do.

As far as NAQT State being like other tournaments, that's the way it's done. About 30 states host some sort of NAQT championship, and they're all run that way. A lot of those tournaments operate on the same concept--best teams show up, one team leaves as the champion. My friend Greg Bossick has been organizing some NAQT stuff in the Youngstown, Ohio area for the last few years, and he had the same dream for an Ohio NAQT Championship the way I did for Missouri--have the best teams come together in one place and fight it out to see who is the best. They had a very good Ohio NAQT State along those lines in Columbus this year, from what Greg told me. There's a method to the madness. :)


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Compe ... forPrez</a>, May 17 2009, 12:51:29 PM.</div>

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PenforPrez
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Post by PenforPrez »

FordATeam/CC wrote:
DeckardCain wrote:
trumanboy wrote:We would have played Richland, Dixon, and Fordland? Those are class 1 or 2 schools right? See how is that fair to schools that small to play bigger schools? You don't send Class AA Wichita to play the NY Yankees!!! I would fix this where only small schools played other small schools, large schools played other large schools...
I'm going to answer this question by directing it in the opposite direction: why shouldn't small schools who are good enough to compete with the large schools be given an opportunity to do so? Richland has beaten enough Class 4 schools over the years that you'd have to be crazy to take them lightly, and in fact beat Clayton, the third place team in MSHSAA Class 4, at this very tournament. Fordland beat Clayton as well, yet didn't even qualify for state in MSHSAA Class 2, which should bring the MSHSAA system into serious question for you if nothing else does. There are numerous examples of teams in smaller classes that had legitimate claims to being the top team in the state yet didn't get to contest that at a state tournament (Savannah and Westminster Christian circa five or so years ago, Richland and Koshkonong from the early part of this decade, and so on); why shouldn't they? Your claim that small schools don't deserve a shot at competing with the big boys is extremely disingenuous, and I hope you'll reconsider it in light of this post.

I have numerous other issues to bring up, which will be coming in a later post.

edit: There was also a small-school championship at this tournament, which we were able to do without segregating the small schools, something that's impossible in MSHSAA format.
While I enjoy being able to say we beat another upper class state trophy winner, what I personally REALLY want is more of an opportunity to play small schools that consistently make it to state, but we don't get the chance to beat. I believe most of these schools are scared off by the fact that they will play the larger schools at NAQT state. Hopefully the more centralized location (at Mizzou) will help bring more schools into the fold. However, unless more small schools attend next season, a return to NAQT may not happen for us.
One of my biggest concerns has long been getting small school teams more interested in good quizbowl. I've had a lot of conversations with Rob Hentzel at NAQT about how to do this, and we never really found an ideal solution. Well over half of Missouri quiz bowl teams would qualify as small schools under NAQT rules, and we have one of the strongest small school traditions of any state. Savannah used to be the smallest high school ever to win a national title. That used to be correct; maybe not anymore. When I played at Cuba (which is a lot smaller than Savannah), we were probably the smallest school in the nation of our era to make the playoffs at nationals.

I have always liked that NAQT allows for separate small school titles in tournaments. I haven't been able to devote a lot of time to this question in the last couple of years; maybe I should. I am hopeful that moving the tournament to Mizzou will bring more small schools in, but it seems like there is more that could be done.

WillHack
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Class 4 District 15

Post by WillHack »

I don't know if this is a special exception or whatever, but there are 6 classes in Missouri Football.

CherryCokeStain
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Post by CherryCokeStain »

trumanboy wrote:
ashkenaziCD wrote:I suppose it's completely unfair every time that NKC beats Parkway Central by 405 points, or Hickman beats Helias by 340, or Thomas Jefferson beats Lakeside (#2 in the country that year) by 730 points
How is it unfair? NKC and Parkway West are both in Class 4 as well as Helias and Hickman. I'm guessing Lakeside is not in Missouri because I could not find the school on the MSHSAA website, so I can not and will not comment on them losing to TJ by 750 points. I'm saying that it would be unfair for schools THE SIZE OF TJ to play schools the size of NKC and Hickman. There are schools that could keep up with larger schools and could beat them, but not most.
I just thought it was funny you think this is TJ Independent Day school. It's not. This is Thomas Jefferson in Virginia (A rather large school), who in 2005 was regarded as the best quizbowl team ever. Learn your quizbowl history man. And Lakeside is in Washington State i think.

WillHack
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Post by WillHack »

Can hardly blame Dakota for not knowing stuff he has never been exposed to. What percentage of Missouri high school quizbowlers do you think have ever heard of Lakeside?

FishyFreshman
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Post by FishyFreshman »

Grant wasn't even sure where Lakeside is. The issue was not knowing who TJ was.

DIoanis
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Post by DIoanis »

I just thought it was funny you think this is TJ Independent Day school. It's not. This is Thomas Jefferson in Virginia (A rather large school), who in 2005 was regarded as the best quizbowl team ever. Learn your quizbowl history man. And Lakeside is in Washington State i think.
I know about Thomas Jefferson in VA, they usually do pretty well at NAQT Nationals right? I think there was a kid from that team that was on teen Jeopardy either this past season or the year before... I'm not sure. It was an honest mistake. I'm one of the most ingornant people on the message board, which I'm sure you all know from my posts here.

I do have a life outside quizbowl, so you will have to forgive me for not getting my history right. Knowing what schools across the country have great quizbowl teams is not that high on my priority list. It acutally falls between learing how to play Jai Lai and figuring out the differences between maple syrups from Vermont against those from Canada.....so you know, it's important!!!


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Compe ... DIoanis</a>, May 19 2009, 08:33:11 AM.</div>

Charbroil
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Class 4 District 15

Post by Charbroil »

trumanboy wrote:I do have a life outside quizbowl...
Funny...so do the rest of us. The implication that we're all troglodytes who have no interests outside of Quiz Bowl is really rather unnecessary. :P

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