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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Tournament announcements, results, and discussion about specific tournaments.
WillHack
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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Post by WillHack »

Note: This thread was split from 2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion - MC

Questions were terrible, at least for the 2 sets we heard. Including 1 where you had to multiply in pi.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Compe ... ardCain</a>, Apr 18 2009, 08:03:22 PM.</div>

FishyFreshman
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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Post by FishyFreshman »

Questions were terrible as predicted. I think every round had at least one error. Most had more than one. Yes, there were repeats. Yes, there were ridiculous horrible bonuses.

hugatree1715
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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Post by hugatree1715 »

FishyFreshman wrote:Questions were terrible as predicted. I think every round had at least one error. Most had more than one. Yes, there were repeats. Yes, there were ridiculous horrible bonuses.
Agreed. There were numerous turns in the questions, and many giveaway clues in the first few words. Thanks, MSHSAA.

[edit: added section below]
Blue Springs is NOT a bad team, but I think that it is very clear that we have much more depth of knowledge than they do. Most of the questions were buzzer races, which evened the field--that's not a good thing if level of knowledge is actually supposed to be an advantage. Who knows how sectionals are going to run. I don't think many accurate predictions will be made.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Compe ... ree1715</a>, Apr 18 2009, 07:55:43 PM.</div>

FishyFreshman
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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Post by FishyFreshman »

I didn't notice quite as many turns as there were at Lexington. That certainly doesn't mean the questions were better though. Almost every question was a buzzer race. Most questions had 4 times as much fluff at the beginning as actual clues. (if there were any real clues) Often times the first clue was something anyone could get, without any sort of real knowledge.

WillHack
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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Post by WillHack »

Yeah, there were tons of buzzer races on the first clue (oftentimes, the first 7 words or so).

Charbroil
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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Post by Charbroil »

Given that we lost, I won't say too much for fear of appearing less than gracious. Zumwalt West's win was very impressive, and certainly I'd say that they worked very hard for it.

That being said, major points of criticism:

1/ First of all, the District format. In our district, we had 4 teams show up. With that number, we could easily have played a Round Robin and gone home at 5. Were the later rounds really necessary?

2/ Transparency. Wow. There were an incredible number of transparent answers in the way they made the question way too easy to guess on before serious clues appeared. "This book by Rousseau" only has two or three serious answers, especially at the high school level--Emilie and The Social Contract. The latter is more commonly known. Thus, I guessed that. And I was right.

That question was representative of an overwhelming portion of questions in the final game--absurdly obvious early clues that narrowed the answer down to a few options.

3/ Excessive use of trivia/subject distribution issues. This, more than the buzzer races, was more the issue this match. At first, the questions were fairly decent for Missouri questions--they asked about solidly academic topics and were either one liners or semi-pyramidal.

That really started to change the second half of the second game, where trivia began to bleed its way into the questions, but only really became an issue in the final match. I mean, seriously? A bonus about First Ladies' maiden names? Can you get more trivial than that?

There was one issue in the more academic preliminary rounds, by the way--too much military history. I mean, that was wonderful for me (I'm, like Derek said in chat, a warmonger :D ), but when a third to half of the history is military, that's an issue.

4/ Answer choices/errors. I actually didn't see an incredible number of errors, though that might have been largely due to moderator editing at my site (thank you, Coach Gibbs). There were the 5 part bonuses (a holdover from Illinois, no doubt) and a few math computation errors and such.

There was also a serious answer choice issue that decided our final match against Fort Zumwalt West. Down about 30, we received a tossup which said "This Catholic cousin of Elizabeth I..."*Buzz* I answered with "Mary, Queen of Scots," was prompted, and gave "Mary I, Queen of Scots," and was ruled incorrect. The problem was not only that the answer (in my mind, at the very least) inappropriately precise, but my answer was correct as well.

To defend my answer:

Mary, Queen of Scots as correct: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09764a.htm (Catholic Encyclopedia article which simply calls her "Mary, Queen of Scots")

Mary I, Queen of Scots as correct (or at least worth prompting on): http://www.websters-dictionary-online.c ... +THE+SCOTS

Accepting my answer would have fundamentally altered the match.

FishyFreshman
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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Post by FishyFreshman »

NKC had the same Mary Queen of Scots issue. I tried to get the moderator to give it to them but she insisted on throwing it out. Our moderators did not deal with protests well.

You are absolutely right about a round robin. If there are going to be 5 rounds with 4 teams, WHY NOT!? It's so much more accurate.

Charbroil
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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Post by Charbroil »

I wouldn't necessarily say it's more accurate, but the loss in accuracy is really minimal. It was my fault that we lost the preliminary match against FZW--I made a lot of mistakes--and if we'd ended it there, we wouldn't have had the chance to play a game actually reflective of our talents. We didn't really make any abnormally bad mistakes in the final match, so I feel that I can honorably attribute our loss entirely to Fort Zumwalt West's good playing and the bad questions.

FishyFreshman
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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Post by FishyFreshman »

Mostly bad questions.

NKCtrashman
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Post by NKCtrashman »

yeah there was a reason when they announced last summer that QG was the State provider that i said, "@#$%!!!!"

FishyFreshman
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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Post by FishyFreshman »

When it was announced, there was a mass curse. Everyone who understands why there was no worse choice yelled out in unison.

Charbroil
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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Post by Charbroil »

FishyFreshman wrote:Mostly bad questions.
Actually...the hard work was a large bit of it. I've never seen a team drilled so that it could get most of the Lit. tossups off of the first line...even the ones that were like "This book is one of those that rank close behind the Bible in number of printings" *Buzz* Don Quixote.

FishyFreshman
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Post by FishyFreshman »

So they worked hard to be good at bad questions. Work wasted, in my opinion.

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socalcaptain
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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Post by socalcaptain »

Yeah the Mary Queen of Scots answer gave my room trouble too. Someone from SC said "Bloody Mary," which is wrong, so I rebounded. Gage from Hallsville (htownrep on the forum) buzzed in with "Mary I," and I had NO IDEA if that was the same thing as the QG answer. After discussion, we decided that we didn't know for sure, so we counted it wrong. It would not have affected the outcome of the match anyway.

Overall, I think the teams were happy with my dealing with protests. Apparently Southern Boone's coach is very anxious to leap on a moderator for any kind of little detail, but I never had to moderate for them.

The general impression I got from teams was that the questions were better than typical QG but still horrid. No teams were really pleased.

The biggest brouhaha in C3D7: In round 3, Hallsville soundly crushed Boonville 355-85. But in round 4, which seemed to me to be the worst packet of the night, they only beat Boonville 265-260. It was a tense end of the match, I tell you what!

NKCtrashman
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Post by NKCtrashman »

Actually...the hard work was a large bit of it. I've never seen a team drilled so that it could get most of the Lit. tossups off of the first line...even the ones that were like "This book is one of those that rank close behind the Bible in number of printings" *Buzz* Don Quixote.
but i would eat them on an Oe or a J.M. Coetzee tossup

FishyFreshman
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Post by FishyFreshman »

Exactly. Studying hard to be good on Questions Galore doesn't mean you are good at quiz bowl, or even that you really know much.

Fresh Prince of Bradleyville
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Post by Fresh Prince of Bradleyville »

In the name of the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and everything holy I MUST ask... WHAT IN THE WORLD WAS THAT?!

I thought I had seen some dooseys, but wow, MSHSAA, nice work. Those questions were so inconsistent, I almost needed a barf bag for the disorientation. I must say though, the distribution seemed really off. Most of what we had was British and American Literature. When you studied that all summer, and all the other team can do is basically math, you ruin their day pretty fast. And when you apply a strategy that keeps them from getting math, they hate you.

All in all though, great work today from our staff, even though only one other team showed up and we were playing on questions gahorrible. I hope the results MSHSAA receive make them go back to their old district system. However, I highly doubt it.

Charbroil
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Post by Charbroil »

socalcaptain wrote:...the questions were better than typical QG but still horrid. No teams were really pleased...
That sums things up rather nicely. Also, to answer this question before it comes up, the general response at my site was negative too.

[quote=""FishyFreshman""] So they worked hard to be good at bad questions. Work wasted, in my opinion. [/quote]

While I wouldn't spend the same work either in memorizing lists and such (I don't mean preparing for Quiz Bowl, which I probably do more than any of them), I wouldn't dismiss their work that easily. It is impressive.

CherryCokeStain
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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Post by CherryCokeStain »

Charbroil wrote:
FishyFreshman wrote:Mostly bad questions.
Actually...the hard work was a large bit of it. I've never seen a team drilled so that it could get most of the Lit. tossups off of the first line...even the ones that were like "This book is one of those that rank close behind the Bible in number of printings" *Buzz* Don Quixote.
That's not something you can get right there. lord of the rings is 2nd most puklished book behind the bible. That's luck.

FishyFreshman
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Post by FishyFreshman »

Double post!

WillHack
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Post by WillHack »

what happened in the Bradleyville District?

Fresh Prince of Bradleyville
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Post by Fresh Prince of Bradleyville »

We won. It wasn't pretty. Here's some facts.

Number of teams participating: 6
Number that actually showed up: 2 (Thanks Wheaton for showing up.)

Results (minimum three games rule):
Rd. 1: Bradleyville wins 175-85
Rd. 2: Bradleyville wins 165-10
Rd. 3: Bradleyville wins 150-85

Stats for Bradleyville (Individual):
Colten Ross 33 tossups correct
Montana Fink 1 tossup correct
Ashlee Kerr 1 tossup correct

That pretty much sums up my district. You know it's really bad if one person can beat another team, although my team isn't a bunch of dummies.

WillHack
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Post by WillHack »

Ummmmmmmmm, we only played 2 games in our 2-team District. . . .

ELADAMO89
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Post by ELADAMO89 »

on mary, queen of scots thing
our moderator accepted it because she knew it was right

GinnyG
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Post by GinnyG »

What I want to know is how the heck you were supposed to multiply three binomials together, and have them simplified, in less than fifteen seconds. My math people couldn't do it, and while they're not as good as Nate was, they're not bad.
And I must agree with Charles. The bonus about the first ladies' maiden names was ridiculous.

FishyFreshman
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Post by FishyFreshman »

There were a few math questions that just couldn't be done. That really long polynomial division one, the one you mentioned, the density calculations, anything where multiplying by pi was expected.

WillHack
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Post by WillHack »

Yeah, I wish we'd had Tom in on the Density ones, I think he'd have had a shot at 'em. They were quite ridiculous, though.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Compe ... illHack</a>, Apr 18 2009, 09:37:45 PM.</div>

Fresh Prince of Bradleyville
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Post by Fresh Prince of Bradleyville »

To Will: Don't worry. What we did was call the rules intrepetor, and he told us to do that. When it comes down to that, I think it can be decided by the tournament director.

To Virginia: NO JOKE. We got some, but for the most part it was those that were ones you could do in your head if you knew what you were doing. While our math people our smart, they, for the most part, can't do the math in 15 seconds. My brother is really good, even he had a lot of trouble. The only math I really got was the trig. Simply put, I really owe a lot to my math teacher.

Charbroil
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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Post by Charbroil »

Funny, we actually got the Density questions, but I'd second that the math was unrealistic to do in 15 seconds.

I mean, some 3 binomial multiplications are doable (the ones that turn into (X^2 + Y)(X^2 - Y), but not many of the ones we saw.

And what was up with that bonus which started asking for all of the answers (to the nearest hundredth) starting with bonus two?

By the way, hey, Ginny! Nice to see another MSA alumni on here. :)


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Compe ... arbroil</a>, Apr 18 2009, 09:50:03 PM.</div>

GinnyG
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Post by GinnyG »

I thought Michael, our main math person, was going to kill someone on the density calculations when he found out he needed to take his answers out to the third decimal place.
I wanted to scream on some of the literature questions. What was up with the modern literature questions? We didn't know half of them!

FishyFreshman
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Post by FishyFreshman »

Yeah there were a lot of inconsistencies there.

Charbroil
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Post by Charbroil »

Yeah...I forgot to mention that. The issue wasn't so much that the literature was unknown--there's nothing inherently wrong with a question that a lot of people might not know, within reason--but the "literature" question went over and over again over topics which seem more popular culture than literature--Stephen King, John Grisham, etc. I'm surprised we didn't get a "literature" Harry Potter question.

FishyFreshman
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Post by FishyFreshman »

Don't forget Tolkien and Crichton. And TWILIGHT OMGZ OMGZ!

WillHack
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Post by WillHack »

Yeah, we had a bit of discussion about the Stephenie Meier book, "Breaking Down."

I wish there'd have been HP questions, we'd have aced those. : p

Fresh Prince of Bradleyville
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Post by Fresh Prince of Bradleyville »

Time for an FDR speech:

"Today, April 18, 2009, the great high school quiz bowl teams of Missouri, were suddenly and deliberately annoyed, by the Empire of Questions Galore."

Honestly, we should seriously start thinking of declaring war. Not just mental war, all out statewide war. I'll gladly capture Rome and Ava for us. :lol:

Kansas City and St. Louis? Well, I'll leave that to a better leader. :lol:

Fresh Prince of Bradleyville
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Post by Fresh Prince of Bradleyville »

FishyFreshman wrote:Don't forget Tolkien and Crichton. And TWILIGHT OMGZ OMGZ!
Yeah, I got that bonus question... then, out of my hate for Twilight, began to try and commit suicide.

hugatree1715
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Post by hugatree1715 »

GinnyG wrote:What I want to know is how the heck you were supposed to multiply three binomials together, and have them simplified, in less than fifteen seconds. My math people couldn't do it, and while they're not as good as Nate was, they're not bad.
And I must agree with Charles. The bonus about the first ladies' maiden names was ridiculous.
If I remember the same multiple polynomial question, it was actually very easy:

(x+2)(x-2)(x^2+4)

or something like that... Many of the terms cancel, which only leaves the end (x^4-16). If we're not thinking of the same question, then I don't remember what you are talking about. We didn't fully pay attention during our bye rounds, and my team was preoccupied with playing Belote (a French card game that I learned while I was in France, similar to Euchre).

[edit]
I mean, some 3 binomial multiplications are doable (the ones that turn into (X^2 + Y)(X^2 - Y), but not many of the ones we saw.
I see that's already been addressed.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Compe ... ree1715</a>, Apr 18 2009, 10:02:53 PM.</div>

MJones
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Post by MJones »

Fresh Prince of Bradleyville wrote:And when you apply a strategy that keeps them from getting math, they hate you.
We did that all day; we just buzz and guess so they only have 5 seconds to do the work.

The moderator took five minutes out of the game to discuss that strategies legality with everyone in the room except our team or coach, then went to the tournament director.

So after the huge break, the next few math questions I do that on she says "...Mike, Dixon."

"2", I say.

"..." "..." "That... is incorrect."

Then THIS happened, after I had been in the same room for a game and a half:

"...Mike, Dixon"

"2"

"..." "..." "Uhh... what's your name again..." "Mike, Dixon."

At halftime she saw me get up and talk to my coach. She stopped it after that.

WillHack
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Post by WillHack »

Wow, it's hard to believe she did that. What a jerk move.

FishyFreshman
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Post by FishyFreshman »

It's a mean spirited strategy to do, though I admit I did at least once because I didn't want to risk them getting it when I didn't think I could.

That being said, the moderator has no business stalling like that. It's not her job to decide if our strategy is ok or not.

AethyricNomad
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Post by AethyricNomad »

Fresh Prince of Bradleyville wrote:
FishyFreshman wrote:Don't forget Tolkien and Crichton. And TWILIGHT OMGZ OMGZ!
Yeah, I got that bonus question... then, out of my hate for Twilight, began to try and commit suicide.
Yeah, I heard "Breaking Down" and thought "Twilight?", thinking for some reason that the reader had just misread it or that there had been a typo for some reason, and guessed "Meier", just because as far as I knew there wasn't a major book published recently titled "Breaking Down"... As for Breaking Dawn, I have heard that there was that one series that most people either seem to love or loathe.

The repeats were ridiculous, as was the fact that it seemed like most questions were British Literature, there didn't seem to be as much math as there has been in the past... I can't really think of much else, but the questions really weren't that great, some of them were worded oddly. I can't think of anything specific right now other than the repeats were odd - I don't remember there being issues with repeats ever before, but then I don't know that I've played with Questions Galol (as I saw it called somewhere on this board) either.

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socalcaptain
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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Post by socalcaptain »

I don't think there's anything wrong with "literature" including people like Tolkien or Crichton. If art questions can be about modern art, why not literature questions asking about modern works? I'm willing to bet more people in general have read a book like Jurassic Park or The Andromeda Strain than have even heard of The Idiot or Boris Godunov.

And, as far as the math strategy thing goes, it is more than totally allowed under MSHSAA rules, and my team does it all the time. It's called strategy for a reason. There is no reason for there to have even been a debate.

And, Hallsville got that binomial simplification one. And, I don't remember exactly, but wouldn't significant digits have forced you to take the density questions to two decimal places? (I may be wrong here...)

FishyFreshman
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Post by FishyFreshman »

Sig figs helped with one of them I think. I know one of them had a lot of sig figs though. And yeah I know the strategy is completely allowed, but that doesn't mean it's not something the opposing team can't get mad about haha.

The binomial simplification one was easy, but there was another longer one that was harder. There was also a ridiculous division one.

AethyricNomad
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Post by AethyricNomad »

socalcaptain wrote:And, as far as the math strategy thing goes, it is more than totally allowed under MSHSAA rules, and my team does it all the time. It's called strategy for a reason. There is no reason for there to have even been a debate.
Yeah, we use that strategy as well, but I don't think we used it as often today... We did use it once on a polynomial division question, and a girl on my team was doing well on calculus so maybe it didn't seem as necessary or something.

Of course, we also played Rock Port, Craig, South Holt, Mound City, and then St. Joe Christian so we probably weren't as concerned about falling behind (at least in the Craig, South Holt, and Mound City matches), either. Most of our matches were close until the end of first quarter or the half, but our match against St. Joe Christian was neck-and-neck before we came from behind.

Fresh Prince of Bradleyville
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Post by Fresh Prince of Bradleyville »

While I will not enter a debate about math strategy, I will say it sounds like that moderator didn't feel too fond of you doing that. They can't really do anything though, as it IS perfectly legal.

On a side note, I saw in an earlier post that someone would expect a person to know who wrote Jurassic Park before The Idiot. I would probably know The Idiot before most current-day novels.

WillHack
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Post by WillHack »

Any strategy that's legal is legit.

Jurassic Park is more commonly known than some of the modern ones they ask. The Idiot should be easier to get than most modern novels, simply because it's been in the Missouri canon longer.

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L-Town Expatriate
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2009 MSHSAA Districts Discussion

Post by L-Town Expatriate »

Just checked out the reported results on MSHSAA's Web site. That alone is telling this expat that this darn well better be addressed the next time the Advisory Committee meets. Seriously, "District 1- Bell City 3, Risco 0"? "District 6- Parkway Central 290/415, Parkway North 230/155"?? "District 11- Nixa 280, Kickapoo 206"???

I sense some of these district reports will cause ugly technicalities when sectionals and state rolls around. This could be worse than when Homer wrote "OK" when asked to not write in this box.

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Jeffrey Hill
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Post by Jeffrey Hill »

L-Town Expatriate wrote:District 6- Parkway Central 290/415, Parkway North 230/155
This was because they were the only two teams that showed up so they played best 2 of 3.

The Bell City/Risco may be 3 games to none.

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Jeffrey Hill
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Post by Jeffrey Hill »

Also, I think this mistake is a little more concerning:

Class 2 District 14: Fort Zumwalt West 330, Francis Howell Central 270

WillHack
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Post by WillHack »

Yeah, that's what the Bradleyville one should say too.

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