Richland won the class 2, district nine championship when all five other teams contacted me and told me that they would not be participating. I wonder how many other districts have only one team competing.

Bob Brown

I take it you don't need me to moderate, then.

Congrats to Richland; jeers to everyone else in the district.

Really, I don't get what MSHSAA expected, in the past there were always hardly any districts that got all 12 teams to show up, usually it was more like 5, sometimes 2. What else is going to happen but now some districts will be even more miniscule?

I suppose this doesn't technically count, but we found out that Francis Howell North dropped out of the District competition today (it's apparently the same day as their prom). So, as of now, Parkway Central and Parkway North will play a best-of-3 to decide who goes to Sectionals.

I think we only have three teams from our district coming. In fact, the previous district host team backed out, and we're now hosting our district.

A rousing success, MSHSAA!

On the bright side, maybe this will convince MSHSAA that a new fix is needed. Perhaps now we will get a system similar to cross country as I believe MACA supported.

Perhaps they will remove the 14-team tournament example from their official documents.

Our prom seems to be the same day as Districts. And the PM games make everything so much stickier. It seems like MSHSAA is just rubbing it in our face "Haha, you play Quizbowl, no way you'll be going to prom!!"

That's cool though for Richland. Congrats. >_>

Well, congratz to Richland, but this only makes me more annoyed at our situation.

In District 1 (I think), we have played all five other teams, and I imagine they will all attend. Three of those other teams, along with us have a chance to win, as everybody has pretty much beaten everyone else at least once. I'd have to say Cape Central is the favorite, though.

It is annoying, however, since District 2, just to the north of us, has no one that I have seen. Initially, we thought we would be up there, but it turned out not.

Also, this is the same day as our Prom. But we're hosting, so it won't matter.

Here is a good question.

Is April 18th an ACT testing date? If not, why were the times of the district games changed to the afternoon, where they could conflict with proms? If the SAT is administered on this date, then the time change makes sense. Otherwise, this was not a good decision.

It is neither an SAT or ACT testing date based on cursory googling. I personally don't understand why anyone would think it's a good idea to specifically schedule a high school tournament that's not a small afterschool conference type thing to go well into dinnertime. It's one thing if a tournament runs late, and even that is bad, but making this specifically scheduled seems like a terrible idea, especially during prom season.

What are the timings of Districts? What time do they start? Ending time?

I think they go until at least 8, so anyone planning on going to prom is going to miss districts or be extremely late to prom. I know that one of our starters will not be there for most of the tournament.

Knowing Katelin I'm guessing she's going to miss districts?

Of the 5 players on our team 2 are planning to go to prom. We have a unique situation in our district with only 3 teams showing up in that each team has a bye in the first 3 rounds. Talking to Tarvin at practice he is going to try to let Truman have that last bye (so the 4:00 game would be a bye for us). That way me and the other player can have an extra hour to prepare for prom which starts I believe at 7. Otherwise we would have left at the dinner break at 5. We will however be playing with either 3 players or one of our JV players could play the finals, which we haven't done as a team for 2 years when Michael played at districts while he was our JV captain.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89156/'>DIoanis</a>, Apr 12 2009, 10:11:18 AM.</div>

Just for some context (so we don't get into the JV player on Varsity, etc...):

I played in Districts my sophomore year AFTER spending the entire season on JV. We are doing the same thing this year with our JV captain (Katie): she has not played in any Varsity tournament, and since we're going to be running short-handed, we decided to give her the experience in playing a Varsity game before she actually gets to Varsity.

On another note, I'm still quite disappointed at the turnout of our district. The last update of the field I heard was us, Blue Springs, and Grain Valley.

Prom for my school starts at 6:30. You can't get in after 7PM. Yay.

Well, it works out for us.

1. We'll have won the District by 4 o'clock (5 if we let North win a game).
2. Our Prom isn't until the week after Districts.
3. We actually have time to go as a team, eat dinner, and then come back and play in a trivia night at Central @ 7 o'clock (not officially as a team, of course).

On the downside, Jason won't be there because he's interviewing at Wash U.

I talked to Roger Stephens and he said that the advisory board decided to use the afternoon starting time for all future districts also. They did this to avoid confusion about starting times in the future. Now, it makes sense to me.

Bob

How is it any more confusing to tell people "Districts will start at 9" than telling them "Districts will start at 12?"

I think the intention was to avoid conflicts with the ACT April test dates, and even though the test doesn't conflict this year, they went ahead and moved the district times starting now. Why? I don't know. Like Charlie said, as long as teams are informed early enough, it shouldn't matter. I imagine they wanted to give teams "time to prep" for the shift in start times.

I won't be missing districts. I will just be able to play 2 games and then probably have to leave afterward. Oh well, it's not like winning on Questions Galore means anything at all anyway.

Starting districts later makes no sense at all to me. Conflicting with proms is a lot worse than conflicting with an ACT date. If districts are announced early then people can take the ACT at other times. I personally rescheduled my ACT date last year so I could go to districts and it wasn't a big deal at all. Prom on the other hand will never be rescheduled and is an extremely important event for most students.

Hmm, yeah, Prom seems like a bigger conflict than ACT. But I can see how MSHSAA wouldn't feel that way.

Personally, I'd say that the ACT is more important in the long run, especially since some parents won't let their kids reschedule--or some students have to take it at a certain date to qualify for something.

That being said, it doesn't seem to make sense to put Districts in the afternoon unless there's an actual conflict--of which there was none this year.

I was going to say something in the same vein as Charles...sometimes people have conflicts with other test dates, too, or, more importantly, have to take it by a certain date to qualify for things.

And while I would agree that prom is important for most students, the ACT (and by the same reasoning quiz bowl), since they are academic activities and not social activities, should trump prom any day. For example, I missed my senior prom to fly to Atlanta for a Coca-Cola scholarship. If someone skips out on quiz bowl to attend prom, they obviously place social life above academic excellence, at least in this instance. So, MSHSAA has decided it would be more important to have the ACT and quiz bowl mesh schedule-wise rather than prom, which also varies from school to school and is easily rescheduled if conflicts are known about in advance. Schools should look at activity schedules for all activities (track, baseball, quiz bowl, etc.) before scheduling prom in the first place.

But - I also agree that it is unnecessary to have late districts when there is no ACT conflict.

I actually do not agree with the last couple of posts. The ACT and SAT are things you can take 6 times a year each over multiple years. Quizbowl is an event you can go to many times a year. Prom is something that is held once a year and has a reputation as basically the pinnacle of the social experience of high school (yeah yeah, I know, some people don't like it but that's neither here nor there). The demand that people sacrifice the potential to have a very rewarding social experience just because academics (especially an extracurricular that really doesn't have a great effect on your college acceptance) seems insanely misplaced. There is certainly a major importance for academic things like tests, but there's a balance that needs to be struck, because going to social events is a very healthy activity that needs to be facilitated, and sometimes it is worth it to sacrifice something academic for a really important social thing assuming your life isn't ruined by the choice. Choosing to not take an April test date and take some in February or June instead so that you can attend districts if quizbowl is something important to you is completely reasonable to ask, and wanting to go to prom instead of districts because, you know, it's prom, is something I don't think any reasonable person should really argue with. Just because not everyone wants to go to prom doesn't mean it's unreasonable to let people go.

I wouldn't simplify it to saying that people who value Quiz Bowl and/or the ACT more than Prom don't want to go to Prom--I certainly do (and am planning to), and I imagine that Alex would have gone given the chance (I wouldn't know for sure, obviously). It's a question of which one reflects the purpose of school more--Prom, or ACT/Quiz Bowl? The answer seems rather obvious.

That being said, it would have made much more sense to just move Districts to the 4th of April and make it coincide with the ACT. *Shrug*

Dees said it best.

Charles, how many chances a year do people have to take the ACT? How many times a year do you have to play in (objectively far less important) quizbowl tournaments? How many times a year can you go to prom?

If it would have made "much more sense" to reschedule districts so that the new afternoon games concept coincides with the conflict it was intended to avoid (which would result in a rescheduled time AND date), then wouldn't it equally make sense to have kept districts in the morning and reschedule it for a day when there's no ACT/SAT (only a rescheduled date)? Oh wait, it IS on a day where there's no ACT/SAT! No rescheduling was necessary, and now it's conflicting with several once a year events as opposed to an event, while arguably more important, that can be done at several other times during the year.

While I personally don't value events like Prom, I understand that many people do, and from a logistical standpoint, it makes much more sense to conflict with something that can be done at other times during the year than to conflict with something than a once-in-a-lifetime event, irregardless of the relative importance of the events.

I'd say that how many times an individual gets to attend prom a year is irrelevant to this discussion. That's only important for an individual's decision of which is more important--and that's obviously different for each individual. Rather, the point I'm getting at is that both Quiz Bowl and the ACT are more important to the stated purpose of a school and to MSHSAA, which is to promote learning (yes, even MSHSAA, at least in theory), not a pleasant social environment.

By the way, Jeffrey has a good point that keeping Districts in the morning and avoiding the ACT altogether would have been a nice idea too. In fact, that probably would have been the best solution all around.

I am with you here Jeff.

Charles H - The number of times one can attend prom is totally relevant. It's a huge point in the argument here. As for MSHSAA's goal being to promote learning....

You don't seem to understand the whole point that it's all a balancing act, Charles. Expecting teenage behavior to be dictated by what aligns most closely with the goal of school is ridiculous and an overbearing standard. Yes, academics are an extremely important part of life, and school should be the biggest priority of teenagers. But to make all of your decisions to fill your time with all the academic things you could do and neglect the chance to have fun with your friends and socialize is not healthy, and there needs to be a balance between the two, which means that, yeah, sometimes there is a social event that is worth sacrificing something academic to attend.
Also, I still don't understand why quizbowl is being grouped under this category. While I balk at sports analogies, it seems to me in this case quizbowl really fits in the same general category a whole lot better than as a part of school. The ACT/SAT are important tests that you should take if you want to go to college. Your class grades are important things to maintain if you want to go to college. On the contrary, I flat out do not believe that saying "I missed districts in 2009 for quizbowl" will have any bearing on whether admissions committees let you into a school, no differently than saying "I missed our conference final in basketball" will affect your future. Saying you did the activities is undoubtedly enough to put on an application if that is what you want out of it, and to pretend that this one event has the same objective importance is to see everything in black and white, when anyone can tell there are shades of gray.

You know some schools restrict who can go to prom. I know at Truman only seniors can buy tickets for the most part So underclassmen either have to date a senior or just wait until their last year of high school.

As I said before, 2 members of our 5 person team will be missing finals at districts. Our coach isn't that happy about that fact, since this could be the first time in a long, long time Truman won the district they were in. I did have to think about going to prom though. Factors like what schools are in our district, where district was going to be held at, and how I think my team could do with out me. I don't feel terrible about missing finals, I mean it only happens one time. And the point about putting a social life above scholar bowl does not apply in my case. I have no life at all outside school. I'm active in scholar bowl, debate and band. I'm in NHS, work 20 hours a week and take advanced classes (which I'm sure most of you do as well). I don't have time for a social life!!! But when a really cute girl who you have had an eye for for awhile asks you to go with her to prom, you kinda have to go . That's the main reason I guess...

At Liberty all seniors and juniors can go, as well as anyone who dates them.

Charlie, of course I agree that teenage behavior isn't always dictated by academic concerns--but that's not my point. My point is that an organization which states that its goal is promote learning (in this case, at least in theory, MSHSAA) should focus on academic concerns--and this means prioritizing the ACT over Prom.

guess it depends what happens at or after the prom B-)

I certainly learned a lot after prom...

PCH has the same Prom policies as Liberty.

MSHSAA's support of "academic excellence" is much better applied to improving their rules than setting Districts on the same days as Prom.

On a different note, let's keep this thread at least tangentially related to quizbowl, ok guys?

*disgruntled man who has no date to Prom*

No date here either. So uh... Will... Are you busy in May?

Yes, Charles, I would have gone to prom had I had the chance. And, in fact, I went to another high school's prom with a friend of mine the next weekend.

And, on a tangent, at South Callaway, all juniors and seniors are invited to prom (as the juniors plan the prom for the seniors). Their dates can be anyone in high school or a graduate under 21. Which means around 175 people get invitations, and since many of them date each other, we don't have a very big prom!

But, more to the point, OBVIOUSLY the best choice would have been to just move the date and not worry about the time shift. I don't think we have any disagreement there.

The argument is whether or not it would be more important to schedule around ACT/QB or prom. And my stance can be taken purely logistically:

1) Proms are scheduled by single schools on their own.
2) District quiz bowl is scheduled by MSHSAA for the state as a whole.
3) The ACT is scheduled nationwide.

Therefore, MSHSAA ought to defer to the ACT for a date (as we agree), but individual schools ought not schedule prom on the night of districts to begin with. I'm aware that there are other considerations to make as well when scheduling prom, but its not MSHSAA's fault if a school decides to make prom the same day as districts. That's ultimately up to the prom committee/administration.

(edit: added this) Therefore, we have no real reason to be complaining here at all. You guys should be bringing this up with whoever is in charge of prom at your school!

(edit number two: added this) Oh, and Charlie: prom has no effect on your getting accepted to college. Missing districts, and thus potentially losing a chance to be state champions/qualifiers, which shows a dedication to academics, might. Probably not, but arguably more so than saying "I went to prom my senior year." does.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89051/'>socalcaptain</a>, Apr 13 2009, 10:55:33 PM.</div>

What on earth? Schools are somehow at fault because they don't plan a year in advance for a minor activity's district championship? This is completely missing where the blame goes here.
Let me reiterate - the reason why it does not follow that MSHSAA should automatically defer to the ACT test dates is because there are 6 chances throughout the year to do it. Having an event conflict with them once a year is a perfectly reasonable thing to do as long as they announce it at the beginning of the year, because there are still 5 opportunities for students to take it other times throughout the year (and I don't know anyone who takes all 6). If there were only one or 2 ACT test dates, then yes, it would be completely inappropriate for districts to conflict with them, but as it is, the fact that there are more than enough other opportunities for people to take the test pretty much destroys any "nationwide vs. statewide" argument here because the numbers make it apples vs. oranges. As Matt Weiner put it, if you choose the ACT over districts in that situation, the reality is you just don't want to go.
The reason then that saying schools should be the ones students complain to about their scheduling of prom is very misplaced is because of facts like the whole thing where schools have to rent ballrooms ages in advance, line up DJs, catering, tables, props, photographers, etc. all are undoubtedly things schools begin to do at least a year in advance. I feel confident in saying once a school has committed to a date, they are locked in for the long haul or else they will lose thousands of dollars. Districts on the other hand probably at most costs entry plus whatever the host has to pay their janitors. Similarly, there are undoubtedly going to be a group of schools anywhere who are going to be locked in to any date because of the fact that all these things I listed above need to be used for other schools' proms too. Another argument is the fact that the school really has no reason to care about what a group of 4-8 people will be doing instead of prom - to think that a few people complaining will get the point home is to think we have magical powers. There is no way imaginable that we would have a compelling argument to schools to tell them that they absolutely must accommodate MSHSAA. Also, this is probably the first time that schools would even have any reason to consider the fact that some official activity would be running well into the evening, so of course that isn't going to be on their prom planning radar since it was on a completely different schedule last year while they were doing prom planning.
The only group here then that we can put the blame on would be MSHSAA. They are the people setting the statewide time in such a way that some kids are forced to make a decision between them and a major school event, and could very easily solve this by running their tournament at a normal time where people start at 9 and get out by like 3, and either actively picking dates that aren't conflicting with tests or making the completely reasonable assertion that they tacitly did in the past that if you really want to play, you will do your ACT some other time.

What on earth? Let me clarify: THERE IS NOT A COLLEGE ON EARTH THAT ACTUALLY CARES WHETHER YOU MADE ALL DISTRICT OR PLACED 4TH AT STATE ANY MORE THAN THEY WILL CARE JUST THAT YOU SAID ON YOUR APPLICATION THAT YOU PLAYED QUIZBOWL IN THE FIRST PLACE. There are no quizbowl scholarships, there is never a close university tie to a team, and there is no reason to expect to get a different result on your applications to college based on how well you did at quizbowl. Saying you played it is going to get you just as far in the process as saying you played it well, making this a non-issue.

Well, I'd like to note that my parents insisted that I take the ACT on the same day as Districts last year, and that I imagine that I'm not the only one in such a situation...

...and there are any number of additional issues which come up. Many students study/take classes for the ACT, and that might restrict which day they can take it. Furthermore, because it's recommended that juniors take the ACT in Spring, that further limits the number of available options.

Thus, it's not as easy as "well, there are 5 other dates, so obviously, if you pick the ACT over districts, you value the one more than the other..."

By the way, didn't you take the ACT the same day as Districts?

Uh...we might need to get this thread split, FYI. Maybe a "ACT vs. Prom on Districts Night Thread?"


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Competition/profile/89143/'>Charbroil</a>, Apr 13 2009, 11:21:00 PM.</div>

No splitting! One of the results of Districts is that we complain.

My school schedules things without paying attention to MSHSAA dates. There's always one activity / team that misses the 1st half of Graduation because of this.

Of course I don't expect anyone to take all 6. But say you have a senior who needs a certain score to get into college. He doesn't get it in October, December, or February. And June is probably too late. So April is all that's left. Yes, I'm aware that it's a very specific instance, but like you have said, the ACT is very important for getting into college.



I suppose I'm a bit biased in my judgment here, since our school hosted prom at school in our auditorium. I certainly don't recall our committee doing any planning work a whole calendar year in advance. Maybe the August of the school year, but not in April. Again, I can only go with what I remember from my own prom planning experience, and since we didn't have to coordinate with a ballroom, things like catering and tables weren't an issue at all. And there is certainly a wealth of DJs and photographers - even getting one on as short a notice as a few months shouldn't be an issue. And with few exceptions, pretty much every school has quiz bowl and is going to have the same scheduling conflict as all the other schools.



I don't imagine the principal just saying, "OK, we'll work for you!" by any means! But by being a member of MSHSAA, a school has to understand that MSHSAA dates are pretty set in stone and that all schools have to follow them. In any activity, not just quiz bowl, would they have to do the same thing. A football team of dozens of members obviously has more clout than a scraggly bunch of quiz bowlers - and MSHSAA sets the dates for both activities. If schools can schedule homecoming and other events around football, then they can also take the responsibility and the consequences of scheduling prom around quiz bowl (and baseball, track, and other spring activities for that matter).



Of course. We all want this. I stated that many times. But I'm trying to say that it's not up to MSHSAA to work around prom. It's up to proms to work around MSHSAA.

But there's a date in June! Maybe if it were the last date of the year I would see your point, but if you are taking prep classes your junior year, you have the June date plus a whole other year to take it, and if you're taking it your senior year you are already going to be in at whatever colleges you'll be in at by the April date, so all you could possibly get out of it is scholarship money, which again, you could just as easily get in June and frankly doesn't sound to me like it's a problem that is going to affect more than a small handful of people within the activity who might be doing something like traveling during the summer or who are compulsed around self improvement.

Uh, no, I never once took the ACT on the same day that I wanted to play at a quizbowl tournament because I beforehand would pick my priority (i.e. I would plan ahead and see what ACT dates didn't have important tournaments and try to pick those, or else I would forego a tournament if I didn't have a choice). I don't necessarily appreciate this implication that somehow I'm being hypocritical when nothing of the sort ever happened.

My only issue with this is that, yes, it won't affect your ability to get into college. But just because there is no "quiz bowl" scholarship doesn't mean your state level awards and such won't count in a committee's analysis for a general academic scholarship. Prestigious awards like huge scholarships mean you have to set yourself apart from others, and just this one more thing is more icing on your cake.

But no one would ever dream of putting that they went to prom on a college application, making the sheer fact that going to state quiz bowl, showing that you are dedicated to academics, trump the fact that you - what, danced and drank punch for one night?

Yes, having social relationships is important and healthy. ... I don't know what more to say here other than I want to make it clear that I understand this point.