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First Districts Results

Tournament announcements, results, and discussion about specific tournaments.
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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

Not all schools have quizbowl - I'd hazard a guess that maybe a quarter of MSHSAA's membership actually shows up to districts this year. Also, part of the whole point of homecoming is that it is intentionally scheduled around the homecoming football game. Prom doesn't have any equivalent game or tied in activity. Prom is just a standalone event, it's such a commitment that all they need is prom (I forgot another cost, afterprom). If you really think that schools have the capability of being ultra flexible and don't already have significant amounts of money set on their prom's date, I challenge you to find me a school that doesn't already have it on their calendar the first day school starts.

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Post by socalcaptain »

ashkenaziCD wrote:I don't necessarily appreciate this implication that somehow I'm being hypocritical when nothing of the sort ever happened.
Um...he was asking you if you had, not implying that you did.

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

I mean, you may not think that, but the whole laughing emoticon and the phrasing of it as an accusatory sort of thing as opposed to a more passively phrased question kind of seals the deal for me.

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Post by socalcaptain »

ashkenaziCD wrote:Not all schools have quizbowl - I'd hazard a guess that maybe a quarter of MSHSAA's membership actually shows up to districts this year. Also, part of the whole point of homecoming is that it is intentionally scheduled around the homecoming football game. Prom doesn't have any equivalent game or tied in activity. Prom is just a standalone event, it's such a commitment that all they need is prom (I forgot another cost, afterprom). If you really think that schools have the capability of being ultra flexible and don't already have significant amounts of money set on their prom's date, I challenge you to find me a school that doesn't already have it on their calendar the first day school starts.
Yes, I know not all schools have quiz bowl. But a quarter of MSHSAA's membership is still more than one school. And one school's schedule is a lot more flexible than the statewide schedule.

Homecoming wasn't a great example...but my point was that other activities get school schedules changed to suit their needs. I mean, if the FFA team (especially one at a rural school) was going to be gone at a convention, you wouldn't schedule a very important activity for the time they were gone.

Afterprom? As a cost for schools? What do you mean?

And, like I said, I am very biased in that my school held prom AT THE SCHOOL. We thus had a lot more flexibility than most schools do. So using my school as an example is not going to be a strong way to prove anything. You are probably right in saying that schools aren't fluid about scheduling. But it's not as if MSHSAA releases the district schedules two months before the activity... they have plenty of time to look and say, "Oh, the quiz bowl team won't be here if we schedule prom...can we find another date?" At that point, MSHSAA is no longer to blame, since the school made the choice to schedule.

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Post by Charbroil »

socalcaptain wrote:
ashkenaziCD wrote:I don't necessarily appreciate this implication that somehow I'm being hypocritical when nothing of the sort ever happened.
Um...he was asking you if you had, not implying that you did.
No--Charlie's right, that was what I was implying. That being said, I wasn't mistaken when I said that you were gone the morning of a District tournament, Charlie, though I might be wrong when I said that it was for the ACT (that's what I thought you told me, but I may have misheard)


Here's Spencer's quote back from the District thread from last year (at link):
Charles from NKC didn't show up until the afternoon either. And he still made all district lol.




<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Compe ... arbroil</a>, Apr 13 2009, 11:49:20 PM.</div>

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Post by socalcaptain »

Charbroil wrote:
socalcaptain wrote:
ashkenaziCD wrote:I don't necessarily appreciate this implication that somehow I'm being hypocritical when nothing of the sort ever happened.
Um...he was asking you if you had, not implying that you did.
No--Charlie's right, that was what I was implying. That being said, I wasn't mistaken when I said that you were gone the morning of a District tournament, Charlie, though I might be wrong when I said that it was for the ACT (that's what I thought you told me, but I may have misheard)
My bad.

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

Homecoming wasn't a great example...but my point was that other activities get school schedules changed to suit their needs.
My bias coming from a school with over 1,000 people in it is that maybe your administration was just great about these things, but I would say every single class 4 school simply wouldn't care about what conferences a club has scheduled. Thomas Jefferson HSST in Virginia in 2005 had to fly in early in the morning to HSNCT after they had won it twice in a row and were en route to winning it again because their prom was that weekend and they wanted to go, so even if your school is at the extreme top of the game, you can't get these things to change. Expecting everywhere to function like your high school did is, like I said, thinking we can perform magic.

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Post by socalcaptain »

Point taken and understood. And we did have a wonderful administration, which I am thankful for. I am wrong to assume that all schools would function that way, of course.

EDIT: And wonderful teachers. One of the math teachers at SC just loaned me her Suburban for tomorrow, since I still don't have my car back from the shop (I was sideswiped over spring break, long story). I owe her BIG TIME.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Compe ... captain</a>, Apr 14 2009, 12:05:17 AM.</div>

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Post by socalcaptain »

But I think I just realized the crux of my argument, which I will repost here:

... it's not as if MSHSAA releases the district schedules two months before the activity... they have plenty of time to look and say, "Oh, the quiz bowl team won't be here if we schedule prom...can we find another date?" At that point, MSHSAA is no longer to blame, since the school made the choice to schedule.

So, why should we blame MSHSAA when the school - in all likelihood - had the chance to move prom, even if they didn't.

Of course, this is all irrelevant since what we all REALLY want to happen is districts to be scheduled on a non-ACT morning anyway.

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

No--Charlie's right, that was what I was implying. That being said, I wasn't mistaken when I said that you were gone the morning of a District tournament, Charlie, though I might be wrong when I said that it was for the ACT (that's what I thought you told me, but I may have misheard)
I encourage you to notice again that I never once said anywhere that I was taking the ACT that day.

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

they have plenty of time to look and say, "Oh, the quiz bowl team won't be here if we schedule prom...can we find another date?" At that point, MSHSAA is no longer to blame, since the school made the choice to schedule.

So, why should we blame MSHSAA when the school - in all likelihood - had the chance to move prom, even if they didn't.
You must live in a fantasy world.

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Post by Charbroil »

In response to Charlie: True, you didn't say you were at the ACT. Therefore, if you don't mind my asking, where were you? Barring medical or family emergencies or other high level academic occasions (scholarship interviews, etc.), there seems relatively little in one's high school life which would be more important than the ACT and thus a better reason to miss Districts for. I realize that other people might have different priorities, but regardless, the ACT is fairly high up there, and unless something else critical happened, my argument about how you yourself missed part of Districts holds.

Responding to Alex, I have to admit that Charlie has a point--expecting a school to schedule around Districts in unrealistic. That being said, given MSHSAA's academic focus, I'd say that it makes more sense given MSHSAA's stated goals of promoting learning (no matter how badly implemented) to work to avoid the ACT more than to avoid Prom.


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Compe ... arbroil</a>, Apr 14 2009, 12:23:57 AM.</div>

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Post by socalcaptain »

ashkenaziCD wrote:
they have plenty of time to look and say, "Oh, the quiz bowl team won't be here if we schedule prom...can we find another date?" At that point, MSHSAA is no longer to blame, since the school made the choice to schedule.

So, why should we blame MSHSAA when the school - in all likelihood - had the chance to move prom, even if they didn't.
You must live in a fantasy world.
No, I'm just saying that what is MSHSAA supposed to do? Go around to every school and ask when prom is and then make districts a day that no school is having prom? That would be an utterly ridiculous proposition to ask for.

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

I'm saying MSHSAA should make a point of not scheduling it at a time that could conflict with prom. The whole reason this issue was never discussed until now is that in the past, on dates that did conflict with proms, there was no problem since teams were done by 3 at the absolute latest, giving ample time to go home, get dressed, and go out to dinner if there was a conflict. In terms of the little picture here, not enough attention is being paid to things like the fact that this is the first year this new schedule has been used, so there was never any reason for schools to care one way or another about whether there was a conflict. That alone is reason enough for school administrators not to have cared. Similarly, I would hazard a guess that other than football and basketball, which I understand play their districts during weekdays/Friday nights, I don't know of any other MSHSAA activity that is willfully schedule this late, and certainly not on a Saturday night. If someone knows better, then please prove me wrong, but I'd think everything is wrapped up in most big tournament activities by 5 on weekends when districts are held. Having an anomalous event, especially one as minor as quizbowl, seems like the last thing on administrators' minds when planning prom. Why is it so impossible for MSHSAA just to run the tournament on a schedule that gets everyone done early enough there is no prom conflict to even question?

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Post by socalcaptain »

Of course, we've all been saying there's no reason to have this argument in the first place.

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Post by Jeffrey Hill »

Quick moderation note: I don't believe this discussion should be split, as much of this thread has focused on the effects of the new scheduling and structure of districts this year. I will create a new thread for posting district results as the date approaches.

<hr />MSHSAA really doesn't have much of an excuse for using this prom-conflicting schedule "just in case" districts happens to be the same day as the ACT/SAT, because the test schedules are available well ahead of time:

ACT Dates - the 2009-2010 and 2010-2011 dates are ALREADY ANNOUNCED (and with no notation of being tentative!) In particular, next year's dates are most definitely final because they already have registration deadlines, so MSHSAA has plenty of lead time to avoid scheduling next year's important events against the ACT.
SAT Dates (PDF) - while next year's dates are still tentative according to that PDF, note this: "According to our formula, test dates fall on the first Saturday in November, December, May, and June; the second Saturday in October and March; and the fourth Saturday in January.", so as long as that formula is used, the SAT is never administered in April, so it doesn't conflict with districts.

I'm not sure how much of an effect the scheduling of other activities MSHSAA oversees has on the flexibility of the schedule, but I don't see any reason why Districts couldn't be shifted a week to avoid a conflict if under the normal "MSHSAA calendar" Districts happens to fall on an ACT date. It's much easier than scheduling districts such that a possible conflict with the many-times-administered ACT/SAT as a consequence definitely conflicts with some once-a-year proms.

And yes, having schools cater the scheduling of prom to the relatively few people who are going to quizbowl districts is unreasonable. It should be much easier for MSHSAA to use the old 9am-3pm schedule and ensure that it does not schedule against the ACT. And remember, since Districts would be done by about 3pm, conflicting with prom is not nearly as much of an issue.

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Post by FishyFreshman »

The way you guys are arguing makes me think prom is just not as big of a deal at your schools. It's huge in Liberty, and the dance takes a ton of planning and distant reservations.

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Post by Charbroil »

Alright, Charlie, if it wasn't the ACT which kept you from attending Districts but something far more important, I apologize. Like I said, I heard that it was the ACT. Sorry about asking about the specifics, by the way--that was unnecessary; I got carried away. My apologies.

And Spencer, you're right--Prom's a big thing (with the logistical strings attached) at our school either. My point wasn't that schools shouldn't schedule Prom on the same day as Districts so much as that MSHSAA should prioritize the ACT over Prom in their scheduling concerns. That being said, it would have been so much easier just to avoid both...(obviously)


<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Compe ... arbroil</a>, Apr 14 2009, 09:18:21 AM.</div>

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Post by Awehrman »

I don't have much to add to the prom thing, but I wanted to address this:
What on earth? Let me clarify: THERE IS NOT A COLLEGE ON EARTH THAT ACTUALLY CARES WHETHER YOU MADE ALL DISTRICT OR PLACED 4TH AT STATE ANY MORE THAN THEY WILL CARE JUST THAT YOU SAID ON YOUR APPLICATION THAT YOU PLAYED QUIZBOWL IN THE FIRST PLACE. There are no quizbowl scholarships, there is never a close university tie to a team, and there is no reason to expect to get a different result on your applications to college based on how well you did at quizbowl. Saying you played it is going to get you just as far in the process as saying you played it well, making this a non-issue.
How many college admissions people have you spoken to? I've spoken with many of them at both state and elite private universities. Excellence always matters. While scholarships for quizbowl may be exceedingly rare or nonexistent and even though they might not know what quizbowl is exactly (lots do), admissions people always look for students who are dedicated and who achieve real results in their chosen activities. Most vastly prefer students who excel or take leadership roles in a few things rather than students who simply participate in lots of things. The difference between simply listing quizbowl on your resume or listing "state champion" or "top scorer in the state" is huge, and if quizbowl is a big part of who you are and what you want to do in college, it's perfectly fine to talk about that on your application. The school you are applying to or what sort of scholarships you are going for may dictate what people will look for, but it's absurd to say that admissions people don't care about trying to get the best students that they can. It's sort of like saying that admissions people only care whether you volunteered at a hospital but not whether you started a new program or won an award for your service. They can certainly be squirrelly in what their looking for, but they always want to see people with broad interests and talents who are motivated to enough to excel at what they choose to do.

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Post by Charlie Dees »

I've actually talked to multiple people who are in roles where they advise about what college admissions people are looking for (teachers, counselors, and a college admissions person) and they all seemed to agree that compared to something with a stronger institutional like debate, quizbowl was not something that enough people knew anything about for it to make an impactful difference in your applications.

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Post by Awehrman »

While it may be true that some admissions officers do not know much about quizbowl, this is not particularly good or constructive advice. If it is something important to you and something that has shaped your academic and personal outlook, and something that you've found success with, it needs to be on your applications. The onus is on the applicant to make quizbowl seem important and significant. If you talked to a high school counselor and asked if you should put your 3rd place at a cooking contest on your resume, they might balk at that too and say it won't make an impactful difference. But if you explained on your application that you got third in the Art Institute of New York City's Best Teen Chef competition or that you created your original tartes aux pommes recipe by translating and adapting a nineteenth-century French recipe, and relate those experiences to your academic and personal goals, you are likely going to be in business. It doesn't really matter if the admissions officer is familiar with cooking contests or not so long as you make a good case for yourself. Quizbowl is the same way, and it should be easier to make the case that your quizbowl experience relates to a liberal arts education.

I speak with some personal experience as well. My quizbowl experience helped me over-perform in some prestigious scholarships at the University of Arkansas beyond my grades and test scores. In scholarship interviews I was often asked about quizbowl, and I was able to talk about its broad and personal significance. My brother and I made such an impact with admissions people in the Honors College that when incoming students asked about the quizbowl team, that they would provide them with our contact information. My quizbowl background helped me get my master's in teaching paid for, because I explained its educational impact and how I wanted to further quizbowl's reach. I included my quizbowl experience on my PhD applications as well. When I spoke with my advisor, a prominent historian of American history, he said he was intrigued by my inclusion of quizbowl on my application. He said that it showed him a competitive drive and willingness to work and learn under pressure.

Now, I have not won every scholarship I have ever applied for, and I did not get in to several other graduate schools, but every one of you should be touting your quizbowl experience on your applications. It certainly won't hurt, and you might get lucky. Admissions officers will tell you that they don't necessarily weigh extra-curricular activities against each other, but that they look at the total package. Also, if you are applying to schools in which there is an established quizbowl presence, your chances are even better than admissions people will know about quizbowl. They may have a son or daughter on a team, or they may have learned about it over the years from looking at thousands of applications and visiting hundreds of high schools.

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Post by WillHack »

We should not have to choose between Prom and Districts and ACT. We should be able to go to all of them; there's enough time in the year.

There are all sorts of things to consider here. Perhaps the District-Sectional-State series should occur at a different time in the year. Probably, we could fix this by simply moving Districts a week or two earlier. Perhaps the problem could be resolved by having the games during or just after school, like a number of sports that occasionally require early dismissal (or all-day absence, like Band or Golf). Maybe we could even play on a Sunday, that would be a nice change of pace.

In other news, I finally got a date to my Prom, so nvm about that. : )

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Post by FishyFreshman »

Aww shucks. And I was hoping you'd go with me Will. You have it exactly right though; we should not have to choose. There is so much time and it's ridiculous that districts couldn't be played at a more convenient time.

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Post by FZW Coach »

It looks like I missed out on lot here. The potential prom conflicts were thoroughly discussed at the advisory committee meeting. The committee felt that there was more conflicts with the ACT than the prom.

I argued that we shouldn't change the date since the teams who wanted to win would work around the ACT (there are 5 other dates a student could take the test). That argument was soundly refuted by most of the others in attendance.


No school in the St. Louis area would ever wait for a MSHSAA schedule before planning their events. The hotels simply would not be avialable if you delayed that process. We always have students missing from graduation due to State Track and Field and sometimes State Girl's Soccer (including two years ago when they won state). The semifinal game was held at the same time graduation took place.

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Charlie Dees
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Post by Charlie Dees »

I fully endorse the above post.

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Post by Charbroil »

That's a first... :D

Personally, at the end of all this discussion, the obvious solution seems to be dodging both Prom (by putting Districts in the morning) and the ACT (by picking another date)...did you guys discuss that at the Advisory Committee meeting?




<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Compe ... arbroil</a>, Apr 17 2009, 07:10:29 PM.</div>

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Post by Eminem »

Why does MSHSAA insist on putting teams in districts that don't even have a functional team? That's what I don't understand.

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Post by FZW Coach »

MSHSAA has no interest in competing with itself. If you look at their schedule, every weekend has some event listed.

As far as putting teams in districts that do not really have functioning teams, if the school signs up for the activity (whether it be boys' basketball, academic competition, or swimming), why would MSHSAA say, "No, you don't really have a team?" FHN did not have a team all year, yet they showed up for GACs. I guess they did not show up for districts (either did FZN), but I would also guess a large reason for that is that they did not know about it. Well, I am assuming on this one. Did the district manager contact the school/coach of those schools? The last e-mail I had received from the FZN coach asked "When is districts? How do we get involved in this?" the week of districts. I had tried to guide her before, but did not do enough to make sure they were registered for districts. If we had been hosting their district, I am sure they would have attended.

That is a tough thing, though. It took me forever to get a firm no from the coach from Timberland. Their AD told FH that they would attend GACs. Yet, they never showed. Their "coach" said they did not have a team, which apparently was unknown to the AD.




<div class="editby">Edited by <a href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/Academic_Compe ... 9041/'>FZW Coach</a>, Apr 22 2009, 01:13:42 PM.</div>

Eminem
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Post by Eminem »

Well, I guess I can understand that, but if i remember correctly, we had teams that never had a team from the start of the year. Does that mean the school just signed them up for the activity just because? I thought that would cost money? Just curious, I'm trying to learn as much as possible, about QB.

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